Understanding Bell's mathematics

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The discussion centers on the mathematical legitimacy of Bell's theorem and its implications for understanding quantum mechanics and locality. Bell's inequalities are deemed irrefutable, but their physical interpretation is contested, particularly regarding the locality condition P(AB|H) = P(A|H)P(B|H), which fails when A and B are correlated. This violation of Bell inequalities arises because experiments designed to show statistical dependence are incorrectly modeled as independent. The conversation also emphasizes that Bell's theorem does not imply nonlocality, as it maintains that the outcomes can be correlated while still adhering to local realism. Overall, the nuances of Bell's mathematical framework and its interpretation remain a complex topic within the quantum mechanics discourse.
  • #31
JesseM said:
And what if H represents all local physical facts in the past light cones of the regions where measurement results A and B occurred, at some moment after the time when the two past light cones stopped overlapping (as depicted in Fig. 4 here)? In this case, if you want to know the probability that setting b will give measurement result B over here, and meanwhile another measurement is being made far away with setting a, then if you already know H, the full information about all local physical variables in the past light cone of the measurement b at some time after the last moment when the past light cones of a and b overlapped (so that nothing in H can have a causal effect on the outcome at a), then learning that measurement a resulted in outcome A should tell you nothing further about the probability that measurement b will result in outcome B.
Here's how I'm thinking about it:

The information regarding whether A or B will detect isn't known at the outset (this knowledge isn't in the past light cones of A and B). So, at the outset of any given trial, the probability of detection at A and the probability of detection at B is always just .5 (even for EPR settings).

On the other hand, what is in the past light cones of A and B is the experimental preparation and setup, which allows that if we've agreed to use the EPR setting, |a-b| = 0, then if A registers a detection, then the probability of detection at B (which was .5) at the outset of the trial, is thereby altered to 1.

So, wrt any settings that allow such contingent alterations in the the probability of an individual detection then F(B|AbH) /= F(B|bH) and F(A|BaH) /= F(A|aH) and F(AB|abH) /= F(A|aH) F(B|bH).

But this doesn't imply ftl because the contingencies that alter the prediction at B given a detection at A, and vice versa, are facts of the experimental setup in the past light cones of both A and B.


Am I missing something?
 
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  • #32
DrChinese said:
This is false. Just change my example above so that all cars are white and all motorcycles black and you will see that that even for classical perfect correlations, the separability requirement applies and works just fine.

You keep multiplying the wrong things, as I already mentioned. So you see Bell's (2) as not working for perfect symmetric/antisymmetric settings, which is 180 degrees backwards. There is no evidence for or against that per se. It is not until you get to the realism requirement, in which other relationships must also exist (unit vector c) that the problems arise with the local realistic requirements.
Yes, I understand that Bell's (2) only works for EPR settings. It works for those settings because F(AB|abH) = F(A|BaH) F(B|AbH) holds for those settings without implying ftl. And, yes, I understand that the locality and realism requirements are intertwined.

Anyway, as I said, I've abandoned the probability considerations temporarily because I don't think that they really illuminate the problem with Bell's LR model.
 
  • #33
zonde said:
Sounds like PBS based analyzer with two detectors. So it's fine.

OK.

zonde said:
I didn't quite understood what answers I was supposed to write but I guess I am happy with a, b and z where a and b are local to Alice and Bob but z is shared between them.

The answers I thought you would give would be those that you derive for your photon example.

zonde said:
As I understand in general case H is supposed to be non-local so it requires caution when we talk about local and non-local contexts.

So I will write that: P(GG'|abz)=P(G|az)P(G'|bz)
Is it ok?

Well, No.

As I see it, H is required so that we know that the source and detectors are EPR-Bell compatible; so that we know we are discussing EPR-Bell. Your caution cannot have H just dropped.

So you should be happy if I upgrade your effort to

P(GG'|Habz)=P(G|Haz)P(G'|Hbz)

and unhappy when I say it equals (1/2)(1/2) = 1/4.

Because your photon experiment (defined by H) would not give that result, would it?
 
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  • #34
ThomasT said:
Yes, I understand that Bell's (2) only works for EPR settings. It works for those settings because F(AB|abH) = F(A|BaH) F(B|AbH) holds for those settings without implying ftl.

And again, this is false. Bell's (2) applies just as much for ANY settings of a and b. There is nothing special about the a=b case. Keep in mind that (2) is just a general statement of ANY 2 sets of classical variables & functions. There is nothing complicated about it, and there was nothing particularly controversial about it. You can probably find variations of this in standard statistical texts. That is why Bell chose this, because he knew it would be understood as basic.

I don't care for it myself because for many people it leads to unneeded confusion. That is why I ignore it in my derivations. There are other things that work just as well and don't lead to a debate.

To address the special a=b case (what you call the EPR case) a bit more: Everyone (pre-Bell) thought this case made sense for ALL a and b and never thought much about it. Because in and of itself, Bell (2) is not obviously violated by the QM predictions. What I think you are trying to say is that based on what we know today, maybe (2) is true for the a=b case. But I don't think you would find very many people who would agree with that viewpoint. It is clearly false for many settings of a, b, c. And whether you want to call it "true" for a=b is something of a semantics issue. Kinda like saying "all men are boys" and claiming it is true for the case where you only have only boys.
 
  • #35
DrChinese said:
I think you may find it beneficial to read the separability statement - Bell's (2) - a little differently. Read it as:

F(AB|abH) = F(A|aH) F(B|bH)

Which is the equivalent to how both zonde and JenniT have it... with AB are a specific outcome for settings a and b with hidden variables H. And remember that we are integrating so that we are not trying to get a simple product.


NOT JenniT PLEASE!

IMHO, if Bell's (2) is to be read as you say, then we have found Bell's mistake!

I asked earlier if I could be shown this above formulation in Bell's work. I thought no one showed it to me?

Who agrees that this above reading is correct? That it is the example that I asked for?



A recent question at Post #24 to DrC about P(GG'|Hazb) was aimed at sorting this confusion out.



From Post #24 --

DrC, I wish personally not to get ahead too far of zonde and ThomasT in this thread.

While I wait for their answers, would you comment on this please (from notation proposed by me above) --

P(GG'|Hazb) = P(G|Hazb).P(G'|HazbG) = P(G|Haz).P(G'|HazbG).

Question 1. MY simplifying permitted because Bell [.. and me also ..] requires as you say "that the Alice outcome [G] is not affected by the Bob setting ". Yes?

Question 2. Is any more simplifying permitted?

Question 3. Did BELL simplify more?

Thank you.
 
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  • #36
ThomasT said:
Note: as I mentioned to JenniT, I'm thinking about Bell from a different perspective for the time being. Maybe there's something in the probability stuff, maybe not.

ThomasT, I am using this reply by you just as a vehicle for me to say something that I think might help you. Because your understanding of EPR-Bell seems to be confused to me.

I think if we agree on Bell's fundamental mathematics then we will all understand the basis of Bell's theorem better.

Your comments about |a-b| and certain values that are special seems (to me) to be not relevant. I am thinking this is part of your confusion.

For you to be trying another approach while carrying this confusion will lead to more confusion IMHO.

I can see that DrC and JesseM may be unintentionally confusing you more. So if you sort out the mathematics and your need to refer to certain values of |a-b| all our replies might make better sense and help you.
 
  • #37
JenniT said:
IMHO, if Bell's (2) is to be read as you say, then we have found Bell's mistake!

I asked earlier if I could be shown this above formulation in Bell's work. I thought no one showed it to me?

Who agrees that this above reading is correct? That it is the example that I asked for?

Don't misquote me! It is not straight multiplication. It is an integral. You must define it correctly. This is a general purpose statistical statement and has absolutely NOTHING to do with physics. It is a straightforward way of expressing a specific type of universe. Look at my car/motorcycle example above.
 
  • #38
DrChinese said:
Bell's (2) applies just as much for ANY settings of a and b.
You can apply it. But it's only locally viable for EPR settings -- his second illustration. For all other settings, it only works if, in Bell's words, "the results A and B in (2) are allowed to depend on b and a respectively as well as on a and b" -- his third illustration.

DrChinese said:
What I think you are trying to say is that based on what we know today, maybe (2) is true for the a=b case.
Not maybe. It is true for the a=b case. That was the point of his second illustration: nonlocality isn't required for his (2) to agree with the qm (3) for EPR settings.

DrChinese said:
But I don't think you would find very many people who would agree with that viewpoint.
It doesn't matter whether they agree with it or not. (2) agrees with the qm prediction for EPR settings.

Maybe we should have these peripheral discussions in another thread. JenniT's trying to work some things out in a systematic way.

------------------------------------------------

JenniT, sorry for deviating from your notation in some recent posts here. It won't happen again.
 
  • #39
DrChinese said:
Don't misquote me! It is not straight multiplication. It is an integral. You must define it correctly. This is a general purpose statistical statement and has absolutely NOTHING to do with physics. It is a straightforward way of expressing a specific type of universe. Look at my car/motorcycle example above.

DrC, I do not understand misquoting you?

Bell's (2) is an integral. We agree.

You say -- Read it as: F(AB|abH) = F(A|aH) F(B|bH).

I say No, that would be an error.

You say it is a general purpose statistical statement.

I say it is a specific purpose statistical statement. Limited in scope and not applicable here.

Where is misquote please?

Edit: Using notation that is coming to be used here, I read your "Read it as" as being equivalent to --

P(GG'|Habz) = P(G|Haz) P(G'|Hbz) = (1/2) (1/2) = 1/4.

Are you saying that we should read the "contents in the integral" your way and not the integral? That's different.
 
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  • #40
JenniT said:
ThomasT, I am using this reply by you just as a vehicle for me to say something that I think might help you. Because your understanding of EPR-Bell seems to be confused to me.

I think if we agree on Bell's fundamental mathematics then we will all understand the basis of Bell's theorem better.
That makes sense to me. That's why I'm going to stay tuned to your thread here -- and not respond to any more posts by anyone except you (in this thread).

JenniT said:
Your comments about |a-b| and certain values that are special seems (to me) to be not relevant. I am thinking this is part of your confusion.
They seem to me to be not relevant also. That's why I decided to concentrate on another approach which I find interesting.

JenniT said:
For you to be trying another approach while carrying this confusion will lead to more confusion IMHO.
What, exactly, is my confusion?

JenniT said:
I can see that DrC and JesseM may be unintentionally confusing you more.
I just recently came to understand (at least I think I do) how DrC thinks about Bell's theorem and (at least I think I do) why he thinks that way.

JenniT said:
So if you sort out the mathematics and your need to refer to certain values of |a-b| all our replies might make better sense and help you.
Sounds good to me. I'll just stay in the background and observe.

By the way, everyone's replies are making sense (of one sort or another) to me, even if I might happen to disagree. I don't feel a need to refer to certain values of |a-b|, it's just a fact that for certain values of |a-b| Bell's (2) is a viable LR model. The problem of course is that for most values of |a-b| it isn't.
 
  • #41
ThomasT said:
...
(2) agrees with the qm prediction for EPR settings.

...

ThomasT

Beware confusion. This can only be true if YOU are defining EPR settings in some unique way.

Are you referring to the detector settings a and b as EPR settings?

We are using H as the EPR-Bell context. Are you saying --

Bell's (2) agrees with the qm predictions under condition H?

I think it does not?
 
  • #42
ThomasT said:
What, exactly, is my confusion?

Maybe it is our confusion? See my last post?
 
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  • #43
ThomasT said:
...

Sounds good to me. I'll just stay in the background and observe.

... I implied [for you to help us] sort out the mathematics. Not stay out.

Edit: What is your view on my question to DrC (and everyone else) about simplifying the P(GG'|Habz) equation? I think it relates to issues that you raise.

From Post#24 --

P(GG'|Hazb) = P(G|Hazb).P(G'|HazbG) = P(G|Haz).P(G'|HazbG).

Question 1. MY simplifying permitted because Bell [.. and me also ..] requires as you say "that the Alice outcome [G] is not affected by the Bob setting ". Yes?

Question 2. Is any more simplifying permitted?

Question 3. Did BELL simplify more?
 
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  • #44
Bell's mathematics is anchored on the principle of common cause (PCC) first formulated in mathematical form by Hans Reichenbach (Reichenbach 1956)
* Reichenbach, H. (1956): The Direction of Time, Berkeley, University of Los Angeles Press.
(see http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/physics-Rpcc/)

Bell's reason for going from the generally applicable mathematical equation P(GG'|Habz) = P(G|Habz) P(G'|GHabz) to the non-general equation P(GG'|Habz) = P(G|Haz) P(G'|Hbz)
can be found in PCC. As I discussed in a recent thread, PCC is not universally valid.

In Bell's own words, in his Bertlmann's Socks Paper(BERTLMANN'S SOCKS AND THE NATURE OF REALITY. J. Bell. (1981)),

While discussing the contradiction and referring to equation (11) P(AB|abH) = P1(A|aH)P2(B|bH), where lambda has been replaced by H, Bell said the following:

John S Bell said:
So the quantum correlations are locally inexplicable. To avoid the inequality we could allow P1 in (11) to depend on b or P2 to depend on a. That is to say we could admit the signal at one end as a causal influence at the other end. For the set-up described, this would be not only a mysterious long range influence - a non-locality or action at a distance in the loose sense - but one propagating faster than light ...

But the part emphasized in bold is clearly misguided if not wrong. In probability theory, it very often is the case that P1 can depend on b and P2 on a even if a has no causal influence on the physical situation at station 2 and b has no causal influence on the physical situation at station 1 since logical dependence does not imply physical causation.
To Bell's thinking, it appears natural to him (albeit due to his misunderstanding) that if no physical influence exists between stations 1 and 2, then he can justifiably reduce the generic equation P(GG'|Habz) = P(G|Habz) P(G'|GHabz) to the specific equation P(GG'|Habz) = P(G|Haz) P(G'|Hbz). Being oblivious to the fact that this equation not only eliminates physical causation, but also all logical dependence, he proceeds to use it even in situations such as the EPR case in which logical dependence exists -- it is obvious that for certain settings, the outcome at station 1 MUST be opposite that at station 2. The latter statement in italics, is a statement of logical dependence between stations 1 and 2, which can not, and must not be ignored in analysing the EPR situation.
 
  • #45
billschnieder said:
Bell's mathematics is anchored on the principle of common cause (PCC) first formulated in mathematical form by Hans Reichenbach (Reichenbach 1956)
* Reichenbach, H. (1956): The Direction of Time, Berkeley, University of Los Angeles Press.
(see http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/physics-Rpcc/)

Bell's reason for going from the generally applicable mathematical equation P(GG'|Habz) = P(G|Habz) P(G'|GHabz) to the non-general equation P(GG'|Habz) = P(G|Haz) P(G'|Hbz)
can be found in PCC. As I discussed in a recent thread, PCC is not universally valid.

Who cares if it is "universally valid"? The question is simply: is it a reasonable assumption for Bell's purposes? The answer is YES.

Now, suppose you don't agree. You'd be in the minority. But beyond that, it is already well known that this is not required anyway. There are plenty of other alternatives, see any of my Bell derivation pages for example. I don't bother with this because some people don't follow it for one reason or another. And it is unnecessarily complex.
 
  • #46
JenniT said:
I implied (for you to help us) sort out the mathematics. Not stay out.
Ok, thanks.

ThomasT said:
(2) agrees with the qm prediction for EPR settings.

JenniT said:
Beware confusion. This can only be true if YOU are defining EPR settings in some unique way. Are you referring to the detector settings a and b as EPR settings?
EPR settings are |a-b| = 0o and 90o.

JenniT said:
We are using H as the EPR-Bell context. Are you saying --

Bell's (2) agrees with the qm predictions under condition H?

I think it does not?
I think you and DrC are right. Bell's (2) doesn't agree with qm for any settings. This simplifies things a bit.
 
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  • #47
JenniT said:
... I implied [for you to help us] sort out the mathematics. Not stay out.

Edit: What is your view on my question to DrC (and everyone else) about simplifying the P(GG'|Habz) equation? I think it relates to issues that you raise.

From Post#24 --

P(GG'|Hazb) = P(G|Hazb).P(G'|HazbG) = P(G|Haz).P(G'|HazbG).

Question 1. MY simplifying permitted because Bell [.. and me also ..] requires as you say "that the Alice outcome [G] is not affected by the Bob setting ". Yes?

Question 2. Is any more simplifying permitted?

Question 3. Did BELL simplify more?

1. Yes
2. (drop the z's ?)
3. No z's ?

I'm not sure what you're trying to illustrate.

Bell's (2) is P(a,b) = int dH rho(H) A(a,H) B(b,H)

How are you translating that, and for what purpose?
 
  • #48
ThomasT said:
EPR settings are |a-b| = 0o and 90o.

Thank you ThomasT, I see some progress.

Suggest you drop the term EPR settings here because we are on about Bell's mathematics. I suspect the term is not much use anywhere.

I think that when most of us talk here about Bell's mathematics we are interested in EPR-Bell settings. By which we mean that Alice sets a (any she freely chooses) and Bob sets b (any he freely chooses). So here the mathematics must handle any (a,b) combination.
 
  • #49
ThomasT said:
1. Yes
2. (drop the z's ?)
3. No z's ?

I'm not sure what you're trying to illustrate.

Bell's (2) is P(a,b) = int dH rho(H) A(a,H) B(b,H)

How are you translating that, and for what purpose?

Thank you again Thomas. I see more progress but must go to long meeting. While I am away could you attempt to answer my questions #2 and #3 without questions. And maybe more answers?

Purpose = I am trying to arrive at the heart of Bell's mathematics.

Your final question is good and gets us close to that heart IMO. IMO real progress.
 
  • #50
ThomasT said:
...

Bell's (2) is P(a,b) = int dH rho(H) A(a,H) B(b,H)

How are you translating that, and for what purpose?

In my translation H specifies an EPR-Bell experiment and --

Bell's (2) is P(a,b) = int dz rho(z) A(a,z) B(b,z).

Purpose = to expose IMHO limitation in validity of Bell's mathematics.

See next post.
 
  • #51
DrChinese said:
Who cares if it is "universally valid"? The question is simply: is it a reasonable assumption for Bell's purposes? The answer is YES.

Now, suppose you don't agree. You'd be in the minority. But beyond that, it is already well known that this is not required anyway. There are plenty of other alternatives, see any of my Bell derivation pages for example. I don't bother with this because some people don't follow it for one reason or another. And it is unnecessarily complex.


I can agree with your YES. It is a reasonable assumption for Bell if he is studying EPR elements of reality.

But if Bell is restricting himself to them, his theory may refute just them.


billschnieder said:
billschneider

points to Bell writing the equivalent of --

(11) P(GG'|Habz) = P(G|Haz).P(G'|Hbz).

For generality Bell could have written

(11a) P(GG'|Habz) = P(G|Haz).P(G'|HbzaG).

To get to Bell's (11) from (11a) he neglects the conditioning aG.

But what if z is a variable transformed during the measurement interaction? It is then the case that aG is a condition on the nature of that transformation.

Bell properly has a and b as ordinary vectors representing the detector settings. For generality, let z be a higher-order vector. Then aG conditions all the z-s in P(G'|HbzaG) so that (11a) is more highly correlated than Bell's (11); just as QM is more highly correlated than classical mechanics, QM using the collapse of the wave-function to carry out the aG conditioning remotely.

Does this leave Bell's mathematics neutral on nonlocality and negative on the z-s (lambdas) that he uses? Lambdas (z-s) that are independent of conditioning by aG?
 
  • #52
JenniT said:
The answers I thought you would give would be those that you derive for your photon example.
But I don't know what to make about this H you introduce.
Maybe we can try it this way. I will give the values without H and you can show how H changes things.

P(G) = 0.5, P(G|H) = ?
P(G|a) = 0.5, P(G|Ha) = ?
P(G|az) = cos^2(a-z), P(G|Haz) = ?
P(G|azb) = cos^2(a-z), P(G|Hazb) = ?
P(G|azbG') = cos^2(a-z)cos^2(b-z), P(G|HazbG') = ?

JenniT said:
Well, No.

As I see it, H is required so that we know that the source and detectors are EPR-Bell compatible; so that we know we are discussing EPR-Bell. Your caution cannot have H just dropped.
So would this P(GG'|abz)=P(G|az)P(G'|bz) be fine if we would be discussing non-entangled case?

JenniT said:
So you should be happy if I upgrade your effort to

P(GG'|Habz)=P(G|Haz)P(G'|Hbz)

and unhappy when I say it equals (1/2)(1/2) = 1/4.

Because your photon experiment (defined by H) would not give that result, would it?
This is not universally valid (1/2)(1/2) = 1/4.
Take for example |a-z|=|b-z|=90deg.
In that case P(G|az)=0 and P(G'|bz)=0 so adding H condition can't possibly change it to P(G|Haz)=1/2 and P(G'|Hbz)=1/2.
 
  • #53
JenniT said:
Purpose = I am trying to arrive at the heart of Bell's mathematics.
__________________________

BELL LOCALITY

Section II ("Formulation") of Bell's original paper begins with a summary of the EPR argument in terms of the example of Bohm and Aharonov (spin-½ particle-pair in "singlet" state).

In that section, without providing any mathematical details, Bell promptly arrives at the following conclusion:

... it follows that the result of any such measurement must actually be predetermined.

It is in connection with this (EPR-type) argument that the "Bell Locality" condition becomes relevant. That is, the "Bell Locality" condition is intended to provide a mathematical basis by which one is able arrive at the above conclusion of "predetermined outcomes" – not just for QM ... but for any theory.

[In another thread, I have referred to this part of the Bell argument as "stage 1".]
__________________________

DEFINITION

"Bell Locality" (for the "Alice-and-Bob, spin-½" scenario) is defined by the following two symmetrical probability conditions:

(a) P(A|a,b,B,λ) = P(A|a,λ)

(b) P(B|a,b,A,λ) = P(B|b,λ) .

In the above:

A ≡ Alice's outcome (±1) ,
B ≡ Bob's outcome (±1) ,
a ≡ Alice's setting (some unit vector) ,
b ≡ Bob's setting (some unit vector) ,

and λ denotes a complete specification of the "state" of the particle pair with respect to a spacelike hypersurface S having the following characteristic (see diagram[/color]):

S intersects the (two) backward light-cones (associated with the measurements of Alice and Bob) in their regions of non-overlap.
__________________________

APPLICATION to "stage 1"

From conditions (a) and (b) in conjunction with the usual rule for conditional probabilities, it follows that

P(A,B|a,b,λ) = P(A|a,λ) P(B|b,λ) .

To this relation, we then apply the condition of "perfect anti-correlation" for equal settings, namely,

[1] P(A=s,B=s|a=n,b=n,λ) = 0 (arbitrary s and n) ,

and arrive at

[2a] P(A|a,λ) = 0 or 1 (never in-between)

and

[2b] P(B|b,λ) = 0 or 1 (never in-between)

[for details see section III, page 6, of the following paper:

http://arxiv.org/PS_cache/quant-ph/pdf/0601/0601205v2.pdf ] .

From [2a] and [2b], it is seen quite clearly that we are dealing with "predetermined outcomes".
________

CONCLUSION of "stage 1"

Any theory which satisfies both

(i) "Bell Locality"

and

(ii) "perfect anti-correlation" for equal settings

will necessarily have "predetermined outcomes" with respect to each (and every) complete specification λ.
____

In that case, we may as well just write (in place of [2a] and [2b]):

A(a,λ) = ±1 , B(b,λ) = ±1 .

This is where the mathematics begins in Bell's original paper (equation (1) therein).

[In another thread, I have referred to this part of the Bell argument (i.e. from equation (1) and onward) as "stage 2".]
__________________________

JOINING "stage 1" to "stage 2"

Upon joining together the arguments of these two "stages", we arrive at the following:

Any theory which satisfies both

(i) "Bell Locality"

and

(ii) "perfect anti-correlation" for equal settings

will necessarily satisfy "Bell's inequality".
__________________________

EVALUATING a specific CANDIDATE theory

Suppose we are given a specific candidate theory for which we can calculate the various probabilities associated with the possible outcomes of Alice and Bob, and that (upon calculating) we find for some λ, A, B, a, and b that

P(A|a,λ) P(B|b,λ) ≠ P(A,B|a,b,λ) .

Then, the candidate theory in question does NOT satisfy "Bell Locality".

For example, this is the case for QM:

P(A|a,λ) P(B|b,λ) = ½ ∙ ½ = ¼ ≠ P(A,B|a,b,λ) .
__________________________

MEANING of "Bell Locality" VIOLATION

... I am sorry, I have not yet fully sorted this matter out! ... :confused:

____
 

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  • #54
JenniT said:
I can agree with your YES. It is a reasonable assumption for Bell if he is studying EPR elements of reality.

But if Bell is restricting himself to them, his theory may refute just them.

As Eye_in_the_Sky points out, this addresses the case where you accept that the results of observations must be predetermined. That is a fairly wide case, certainly nothing to sneeze at.
 
  • #55
Eye_in_the_Sky said:
EVALUATING a specific CANDIDATE theory

Suppose we are given a specific candidate theory for which we can calculate the various probabilities associated with the possible outcomes of Alice and Bob, and that (upon calculating) we find for some λ, A, B, a, and b that

P(A|a,λ) P(B|b,λ) ≠ P(A,B|a,b,λ) .

Then, the candidate theory in question does NOT satisfy "Bell Locality".

A machine produces pairs of balls at a time. Each ball contains two switches, the red switch and the blue switch . Each pair is created such that on one ball, pressing the switch causes the ball to light-up the color of the switch but on the other ball pressing the switch causes the ball to light up the opposite color (blue or red). The latter statement is the hidden variable which governs all the outcomes (z) and is determined when the balls are created at the machine. One of pair is randomly sent to Alice and the other to Bob.

P(A|az) = Probability that Alice will see a Red color after pressing a switch (a)
P(B|bz) = probability that Bob will see a Blue color after pressing a switch (b)

P(AB|abz) = Probability that both Alice and Bob will see opposite colors after Alice presses switch (a) and Bob presses switch (b).

Here is the so-called 'full universe' of possibilities defined by z: where abs means Alice presses blue switch and brs means Bob presses red switch. The color after the hyphen, is what Alice and Bob see as a result of their pressing their switches.
Alice, Bob
1: abs-blue, brs-blue
2: abs-blue, bbs-red
3: abs-red, bbs-blue
4: abs-red, brs-red
5: ars-blue, bbs-blue
6: ars-blue, brs-red
7: ars-red, brs-blue
8: ars-red, bbs-red

Let us calculate the probability P(AB|abz) for the situation for which:
a = abs (ie, Alice presses blue switch),
b = bbs (ie, Bob presses blue switch)

first using the generic chain rule. Note that the chain rule is universally valid.
(x) P(AB|abs, bbs, z) = P(A|abs, bbs, z) P(B|abs, bbs, z, A)

and then compare with Bell's specific choice
(y) P(AB|abs, bbs, z) = P(A|abs, z) P(B|bbs, z)

Presumably, as Eye_in_the_Sky pointed out, if these values are different, then the situation violates Bell's locality.

The procedure for calculating the following probabilities is according to standard practice. Count the case instances in the full universe in which everything to the right of '|' in the expression occurs, this is the denominator. Within that subset, count the number of case instances in which everything to the left of '|' in the expression occurs, this is the numerator.

It follows therefore that:

P(A|abs, z) = 2/4 = 1/2 (based on cases 1,2,3,4 where abs occurs)
P(B|bbs, z) = 2/4 = 1/2 (based on cases 2,3,5,8 were bbs occurs)
P(A|abs, bbs, z) = 1/2 (based on cases 2,3 where both abs and bbs occur)
P(B|abs, bbs, z, A) = 1 (based on case 3 where both abs and bbs occur and Alice got a red light)

Putting everything together,

P(AB|abz) from (x) = 1/2 * 1 = 1/2

P(AB|abz) from (y) = 1/2 * 1/2 = 1/4

since P(A|abz) P(B|Aabz) /= P(A|az) P(B|bz) in this case, does that mean this case is non-local? What does this say about Bell's locality condition?
Note that in this example, looking only at the colors at Alice, she appears to get random results, and similar for Bob. But when looking at coincidences, they show perfect anti-correlation when they press the same colored switch -- a Microcosm of the EPR experiment.
 
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  • #56
billschnieder said:
A machine produces pairs of balls at a time. Each ball contains two switches, the red switch and the blue switch . Each pair is created such that on one ball, pressing the switch causes the ball to light-up the color of the switch but on the other ball pressing the switch causes the ball to light up the opposite color (blue or red). The latter statement is the hidden variable which governs all the outcomes (z) and is determined when the balls are created at the machine. One of pair is randomly sent to Alice and the other to Bob.

P(A|az) = Probability that Alice will see a Red color after pressing a switch (a)
P(B|bz) = probability that Bob will see a Blue color after pressing a switch (b)
So A represents the event of Alice seeing a Red color, and B represents the event of Bob seeing a blue color? If so:
billschnieder said:
P(AB|abz) = Probability that both Alice and Bob will see opposite colors after Alice presses switch (a) and Bob presses switch (b).
This should actually be the probability Alice sees Red and Bob sees blue given the switches they pressed, not general probability that they "see opposite colors". The total probability they see opposite colors would be P(AB|abz) + P(A'B'|abz), where A' represents Alice seeing Blue and B' represents Bob seeing Red.
billschnieder said:
Here is the so-called 'full universe' of possibilities defined by z: where abs means Alice presses blue switch and brs means Bob presses red switch. The color after the hyphen, is what Alice and Bob see as a result of their pressing their switches.
Alice, Bob
1: abs-blue, brs-blue
2: abs-blue, bbs-red
3: abs-red, bbs-blue
4: abs-red, brs-red
5: ars-blue, bbs-blue
6: ars-blue, brs-red
7: ars-red, brs-blue
8: ars-red, bbs-red
But your "full universe" does not actually include the hidden variables information about whether Alice has the "normal" ball where pressing a given color switch causes the ball to light up that color, or the "opposite" ball where pressing a given color switch causes the ball to light up the opposite color. We could include that information as two possible hidden variable-states aNbO (meaning Alice got the Normal ball and Bob got the Opposite ball) or aObN (meaning Alice got the Opposite ball and Bob got the Normal one).
billschnieder said:
Let us calculate the probability P(AB|abz) for the situation for which:
a = abs (ie, Alice presses blue switch),
b = bbs (ie, Bob presses blue switch)

first using the generic chain rule. Note that the chain rule is universally valid.
(x) P(AB|abs, bbs, z) = P(A|abs, bbs, z) P(B|abs, bbs, z, A)

and then compare with Bell's specific choice
(y) P(AB|abs, bbs, z) = P(A|abs, z) P(B|bbs, z)
Bell's specific choice is only meant to apply in cases where you include the hidden-variable information. So, your "z" must include the information about whether the hidden state was aNbO or aObN. If it does, equation (y) will indeed apply; for example, P(AB|abs, bbs, aObN) = 1 (because if Alice presses the blue switch and she had the Opposite ball, it's guaranteed with probability 1 that Alice will see Red, which is what event A stood for, and similarly if Bob presses the blue switch and he had the Normal ball, it's guaranteed with probability 1 that he'll see Blue which is what B stood for), and it's also true that P(A|abs, aObN) = 1 and P(B|bbs, aObN) = 1.
billschnieder said:
The procedure for calculating the following probabilities is according to standard practice. Count the case instances in the full universe in which everything to the right of '|' in the expression occurs, this is the denominator. Within that subset, count the number of case instances in which everything to the left of '|' in the expression occurs, this is the numerator.

It follows therefore that:

P(A|abs, z) = 2/4 = 1/2 (based on cases 1,2,3,4 where abs occurs)
If your "z" does not include the relevant hidden-variable information, but only states that this must be one of four possible cases where Alice pushes the blue switch, then there's no reason to expect the equation P(AB|abs, bbs, z) = P(A|abs, z) P(B|bbs, z) will be valid, you are badly misunderstanding Bell's reasoning if you think he'd expect the equation to apply under such assumptions.

Now, if you want to consider a sum over different possible hidden variables states, it would be true that P(AB|abs, bbs) would be a sum over all possible values of z of P(AB|abs, bbs, z)*P(z), and by the argument I mentioned above, a sum over all values of z of P(AB|abs, bbs, z)*P(z) is equal to a sum over all values of z of P(A|abs, z)*P(B|bbs, z)*P(z).

Note that this equation:

P(AB|abs, bbs) = (sum over all values of z) P(A|abs, z)*P(B|bbs, z)*P(z)

...is directly analogous to equation (2) in Bell's original paper at http://www.drchinese.com/David/Bell_Compact.pdf

In this case we have a particularly simple version of z that can only take two values, aObN or aNbO. So the above would become:

P(AB|abs, bbs) = P(A|abs, aObN)*P(B|bbs, aObN)*P(aObN) + (A|abs, aNbO)*P(B|bbs, aNbO)*P(aNbO)

Since A means Alice got Red, A is guaranteed to occur if she pressed the blue switch and had the Opposite ball (abs, aObN) and guaranteed not to occur if she pressed the blue switch and had the Normal ball (abs, aNbO). So, P(A|abs, aObN)=1 and P(A|abs, aNbO)=0.
Likewise P(B|bbs, aObN)=1 and P(B|bbs, aNbO)=0. So, the above reduces to:

P(AB|abs, bbs) = 1*1*P(aObN) + 0*0*P(aNbO) = P(aObN)

Which is exactly what you'd expect, since given that they both pressed the blue switch, A (Alice getting Red) and B (Bob getting Blue) is guaranteed to happen of Alice got the Opposite ball and Bob got the Normal ball, and guaranteed not to happen if the balls were reversed. Whatever the probability that Alice got the Opposite ball and Bob got the Normal ball, that should be the same as the probability of P(AB|abs, bbs).
 
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  • #57
JesseM said:
And what if H represents all local physical facts in the past light cones of the regions where measurement results A and B occurred, at some moment after the time when the two past light cones stopped overlapping (as depicted in Fig. 4 here)? In this case, if you want to know the probability that setting b will give measurement result B over here, and meanwhile another measurement is being made far away with setting a, then if you already know H, the full information about all local physical variables in the past light cone of the measurement b at some time after the last moment when the past light cones of a and b overlapped (so that nothing in H can have a causal effect on the outcome at a), then learning that measurement a resulted in outcome A should tell you nothing further about the probability that measurement b will result in outcome B.
ThomasT said:
Here's how I'm thinking about it:

The information regarding whether A or B will detect isn't known at the outset (this knowledge isn't in the past light cones of A and B). So, at the outset of any given trial, the probability of detection at A and the probability of detection at B is always just .5 (even for EPR settings).
It isn't known by the experimenters themselves, but for an imaginary being who knows H, the full set of local variables at every point in the past light cone of the measurements at some time t, the results might be predictable (in a local realist universe with perfectly deterministic rules, it would be predictable with probability 1). And any equation featuring H, like F(AB|abH), can be viewed as the frequency or probability as seen by that imaginary observer who knows H, not the frequency/probability as seen by the experimenters.

So again, do you disagree that for such an imaginary observer with that extra knowledge, living in a universe obeying local realist laws, it should be true that F(AB|abH) = F(A|aH) F(B|AbH) under the definition of H I gave in post #29? If you do disagree, can you address the argument about how assuming otherwise would imply FTL information transmission?
 
  • #58
zonde said:
But I don't know what to make about this H you introduce.
Maybe we can try it this way. I will give the values without H and you can show how H changes things.

P(G) = 0.5, P(G|H) = ?
P(G|a) = 0.5, P(G|Ha) = ?
P(G|az) = cos^2(a-z), P(G|Haz) = ?
P(G|azb) = cos^2(a-z), P(G|Hazb) = ?
P(G|azbG') = cos^2(a-z)cos^2(b-z), P(G|HazbG') = ?
...


zonde, I am sorry and apologize if my preoccupation-with-precision or my mistakes have led me to give you grief.

IMO probability concerns the study of a function P(X|Y), read as "the probability of X conditional on Y". So a function P(X) is not part of probability theory IMO.

IMO, in our discussion H is the condition that defines your EPR-Bell experiment with photons in identical states. H = the implied condition in your notation.

Your expressions above have this H implied, otherwise you would not know how to give values for each expression. In mathematics, implied conditions can lead to trouble ...

Above you have written --

<< P(G|azbG') = cos^2(a-z)cos^2(b-z), P(G|HazbG') = ? >>

IMO P(G|HazbG') = cos^2(a-b).

Is this a mistake?

Cheers, JenniT
 
  • #59
Eye_in_the_Sky said:
__________________________

...

EVALUATING a specific CANDIDATE theory

Suppose we are given a specific candidate theory for which we can calculate the various probabilities associated with the possible outcomes of Alice and Bob, and that (upon calculating) we find for some λ, A, B, a, and b that

P(A|a,λ) P(B|b,λ) ≠ P(A,B|a,b,λ) .

Then, the candidate theory in question does NOT satisfy "Bell Locality".

For example, this is the case for QM:

P(A|a,λ) P(B|b,λ) = ½ ∙ ½ = ¼ ≠ P(A,B|a,b,λ) .
__________________________

MEANING of "Bell Locality" VIOLATION

... I am sorry, I have not yet fully sorted this matter out! ...
____

Dear Eye_in_the_Sky, thank you. I have not studied your total response in depth but I love your candidate theory to bits.

Suppose we are given candidate theory X for which we can calculate the various probabilities associated with the possible outcomes of Alice and Bob. Let the possible outcomes for Alice be A = {G, R}, for Bob be B = {G', R'}. Upon calculating with X we find for some λ, A, B, a, and b that

P(G|X,a,λ) P(G'|X,b,λ) ≠ P(G,G'|X,a,b,λ) .

Then X [in your view] does NOT satisfy "Bell Locality".

For example [in your view], this is the case for QM:

P(G|X,a,λ) P(G'|X,b,λ) = ½ ∙ ½ = ¼ ≠ P(G,G'|X,a,b,λ) .
__________________________

MEANING of "Bell Locality" VIOLATION and the error in X.

If G and G' are correlated, probability theory teaches [equation (1)] that

(1) P(G,G'|X,a,b,λ) = P(G|X,a,b,λ).P(G'|X,a,b,λ,G) =

(2) P(G|X,a,λ).P(G'|X,a,b,λ,G);

(2) following from (1) because (with Einstein, Bell, and many others) we agree that setting b can have no relevance for outcome G. A realistic locality condition.

But Bell goes further. Bell supposes [Bertlmann's Socks, page 13] that

(3) P(G'|X,a,b,λ,G) = P(G'|X,b,λ),

a result [you say] known as Bell locality.

Bell supposes that the condition aG has no relevance for λ. So Bell locality is a restraint on the λ-s under consideration in candidate theory X. This explains why theory X fails to be realistic.

"Bell locality" might be less confusing if known as "Bell's supposition"?

The condition aG has relevance for λ because it indicates how the λ-s in P(G'|X,a,b,λ,G) respond when subject to a measurement interaction with a measuring device oriented a -- they yield outcome G -- that is the relevance and physical significance of condition aG = |a,G.

[See the one emphasized phrase in Bohr's response to EPR; a response which Bell did not understand.]

Thus condition aG eliminates, from consideration in P(G'|X,a,b,λ,G), just those λ-s that are irrelevant.

Or, better, clearer:

Condition aG identifies, for consideration in P(G'|X,a,b,λ,G), just those λ-s that are relevant. That is, the λ-s that would respond, if subject to a measurement interaction with a measurement device oriented a, to yield outcome G -- that being the relevance and physical significance of aG.

Bell's supposition is a restriction on candidate λ-s.

Bell's supposition should not be associated with locality, nor with realistic constraints on locality.

Note 1:
A realistic constraint on locality was exercised in reducing (1) to (2).

Note 2:
Parameter independence is allowed --
(4) P(G'|X,a,b,λ,G) = P(G'|X,b,λ,G).

Note 3:
Outcome independence is allowed --
(5) P(G'|X,a,b,λ,G) = P(G'|X,a,b,λ).

Note 4:
The one thing not allowed, when X relates to EPR-Bell settings, is Bell's supposition
(3) P(G'|X,a,b,λ,G) = P(G'|X,b,λ).

IMHO.
 
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  • #60
At first glance, this looks ok. By that I mean it makes sense to me. Hopefully some more sophisticated observers than I will comment.
 

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