Understanding Countability of Set L: A Confusing Point

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Discussion Overview

The discussion centers around the countability of a set L, specifically in the context of a mapping from L to the rationals Q. Participants are exploring the implications of a one-to-one function and the conditions under which L can be considered countable.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Mathematical reasoning
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • One participant expresses confusion regarding the conclusion that set L is bijectively equivalent to a subset of Q, questioning the transition from showing that the function g is one-to-one to concluding that it is bijective.
  • Another participant suggests that a bijection from a countable set to an uncountable set can exist but may not be onto, implying that if the function is not onto, the range remains countable.
  • A later reply reiterates the idea that the only established property of the function g is that it is injective, noting that it is not surjective onto Q, which is countable.
  • One participant shares an intuitive perspective, suggesting that if there is a one-to-one mapping between a countable domain and its range, then the range must also be countable, although they struggle to articulate this in formal mathematical terms.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants do not reach a consensus on the implications of the one-to-one mapping or the conditions required for establishing bijectiveness. Multiple competing views regarding the nature of the function and its implications for countability remain present.

Contextual Notes

There are limitations in the discussion regarding the formal definitions and properties of bijections and countability, as well as the assumptions made about the function g and its relationship to the set L.

Bachelier
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I don't understand this point:

Given the open set E = U_(a in L) I_a. Union of open intervals
We're showing this is countable.

WTS is that indexed set L is countable.

Set g: L---> Q (rationals) because Q is dense then every interval meets Q.
a---> q_a

this is 1-1. But here's where I get confused:

The conclusion is: Hence L is bijectively equivalent to a subset of Q and hence is countab.

I understand the fact that a subset of countable set is countable. But g codomain is Q. Should I restrict it to some Q_a in Q and show that g is invertible. Hence bij.
We only proved g is 1-1. Where did the bij. argument come from.

Thanks guys
 
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This is just a guess, but a bijection from a countable set to a uncountable set can still be bijective but not onto.

Im guessing that you if you show that the function is not onto, then with the property of the bijection, then the range of the function is countable.
 
chiro said:
This is just a guess, but a bijection from a countable set to a uncountable set can still be bijective but not onto.

Im guessing that you if you show that the function is not onto, then with the property of the bijection, then the range of the function is countable.

Yeah but the only thing known about the function "g" is that it is injective.
It sure is not surjective on Q although this latter is countable.
 
any ideas?
 
I haven't done enough pure math to formulate what I mean precisely in mathematical language but intuitively if you have a 1-1 between domain and range then if domain is countable then range is countable since if you have finite domain you have finite range.

Surely there is a way of saying if you have finite domain and mapping is 1-1 then range must be finite. Only things I can think of is using cardinality or maybe the union of the sets in the range (something like if f(A) = B then union of range is union f(A) over A which implies union (B) over rationals which is subset of rationals (prove that all function values are rational) and since each is disjoint (because of 1-1) the size of the set is the number of elements which is size of L).

I'm sorry I can't put it into the "theorem/proof" kind of way but it is a fairly intuitive result that a finite mapping that is 1-1 must have a finite range.
 

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