Understanding Electron Spin: Deep Theoretical Reasons Explained

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Discussion Overview

The discussion centers around the concept of electron spin, particularly its origins and theoretical underpinnings. Participants explore the nature of spin in elementary particles, the implications of Noether's Theorem, and the mathematical frameworks that describe these phenomena.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Debate/contested
  • Mathematical reasoning

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants express curiosity about the "deep theoretical reasons" behind the existence of spin in elementary particles, suggesting a connection to rotational symmetry.
  • Others seek clarification on the origin of spin and its relation to magnetic moments, emphasizing the need for non-circular explanations.
  • A participant references Noether's Theorem as a potential source of insight into the conservation laws derived from symmetries.
  • There are questions regarding the interpretation of mathematical expressions related to rotation generators and their commutation relations, with some participants expressing confusion over notation and derivations.
  • Discussions arise about the Levi-Civita tensor and its role in the context of rotation and spin, with participants attempting to clarify its properties and applications.
  • Some participants challenge each other's interpretations of mathematical results, particularly regarding the implications of Hermitian operators and the use of Einstein summation convention.
  • There is an ongoing exploration of the relationship between covariant and contravariant indices in the context of the Levi-Civita tensor and its applications.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants do not reach a consensus on the origins of spin or the interpretations of the mathematical frameworks discussed. Multiple competing views and uncertainties remain throughout the conversation.

Contextual Notes

Participants express uncertainty regarding specific mathematical steps and definitions, particularly in relation to the application of Noether's Theorem and the properties of the Levi-Civita tensor. The discussion reflects a range of assumptions and interpretations that are not fully resolved.

BiGyElLoWhAt
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This has always bugged me, but it appears that the answer is out there via this:
"But deep theoretical reasons having to do with the rotational symmetry of nature lead to the existence of spins for elementary objects and to their quantization."

The sentence before says this:
"A simple answer might be, perhaps they are composite, too."
Which was always what I had assumed, simply because it seems to make sense (not just for explaining spin).

Can someone link me to these "deep theoretical reasons"? I may not understand them for a while, but at least I'll know what questions I need to be asking, and that's a pretty good start in my book.

Thanks.
 
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Wow, I suppose I should ask the question...
What is the origin of spin in fundamental particles? I can understand the spin of composites no problem, but for elementary particles, i.e. the electron, I don't see what would be the reason for it to have a magnetic moment (related to the spin). Links to either or, so long as it's not a circular explanation (i.e. electrons have a magnetic moment because they have spin), would be appreciated.
 
BiGyElLoWhAt said:
"But deep theoretical reasons having to do with the rotational symmetry of nature lead to the existence of spins for elementary objects and to their quantization."
You might look into Noether's Theorem.
You might also give Leon Lederman's book about symmetry a try.
https://www.amazon.com/dp/1591025753/?tag=pfamazon01-20
 
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Thanks, I'll give it a look.
 
Is there more to Noether's theorem than conservation derived from a symmetry? It seems the final statement of the theorem arrived at is ##\partial_{\mu}A^{\mu} = 0##
 
I'm not sure how to interpret this. I would assume bad notation, but I'm not sure.
"The generators of rotations obey the commutation relations:
##[J^i,J^j] = i\epsilon^{ijk}J^k##
So I'm pretty sure that the i, j, and k in the superscripts are indices, however it seems like perhaps the i before epsilon is the imaginary number? What is epsilon? Also, if this is the case, wouldn't the result of the left hand side be something to the effect of ##iA^{ijkk}##? I must be missing something with this. I could see if it were ##J_k##, how this could work out, so is this the inverse spin in k (drawing analogy from metrics)? If not, what does a double index represent? Or am I just completely off?

Alright, so bear with me, please.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rotation_operator_(quantum_mechanics)#The_translation_operator
I don't understand why they're doing what they're doing.
The first line is ##T(0) = I## That's fine, I can follow all the way up through the taylor series, but then when they define p_x, they define it as a product of ##\frac{dT(0)}{da}## where a is the amount translated. Isn't this quantity zero? The rate of change of a constant ##I## with respect to an argument should be zero, from where I'm at. If that's the case, it should follow that ##T(da)=I## (I'm using I instead of 1). Then they get a differential equation, which, following the same logic, gives ##\frac{dT}{da} = 0 \therefore T(a) = constant## This is far from their answer. So ##\frac{dT(0)}{da}## must not be zero. Hmmm... Ok, maybe it's not. If you plug in p_x = 0, you get ##T(a) = 1##, which makes no physical sense. Where did I mess up? How, rather.
 
Is it reasonable to integrate covectors without an argument?
 
## \epsilon^{ijk} ## is the Levi-Civita tensor a.k.a. the totally anti-symmetric tensor. To connect this what you have for the translation operator, ## \epsilon^{ijk} ## are the structure coefficients of the Lie Algebra group for the generators of rotation. Sorry, if I'm using to many vocab words, but I'm just trying to give you key words to search for to find out more.

As for your question regarding the Translation operator, it is just a straightforward Taylor expansion. So, it is not the derivative of T(0) (that doesn't make any sense) but the derivative of T evaluated at 0.
 
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  • #10
Ahh, I see. I have actually run into the Levi-Cevita connection many times in the past, but have never actually worked with it. I'm assuming they are related.

No problem, I've seen all of these before, but haven't really delved into them very deeply.
 
  • #11
That still doesn't answer the question about the resultant of the RHS, however. It seems to solidify my result, which I'm not sure how to interpret.
 
  • #12
I do not see how it solidfies your argument. ## p_x ## is a Hermitian operator and can't be just set to zero.
 
  • #13
Sorry, not that. The product ##i\epsilon^{ijk}J^k = i\epsilon^{ijk}\frac{1}{2}\sigma^k = [J^i,J^j] = \frac{1}{2}[\sigma^i,\sigma^j]## This was the original dilemma. All the rest just came from me trying to find the answer =/
 
  • #14
Also, I'm not sure how this product would work, even. With the levi civita tensor being 3x3x3 and sigma k being 2x2. Is the 'i' out front shorthand for some sort of index collapse?
 
  • #15
I'm just trying to wrap my head around this. Hopefully it's coming across that way. I'm clearly missing something.
 
  • #16
BiGyElLoWhAt said:
Sorry, not that. The product ##i\epsilon^{ijk}J^k = i\epsilon^{ijk}\frac{1}{2}\sigma^k = [J^i,J^j] = \frac{1}{2}[\sigma^i,\sigma^j]## This was the original dilemma. All the rest just came from me trying to find the answer =/

Ok, I'll just a couple of quick examples for the commutator. First, ## \epsilon^{123}=1 ## and for all cyclic permutations of {123}, and is equal to zero if any indices are repeated. It's totally antisymmetric, meaning that swapping any two indices gives a minus sign.

So, for instance ## [J^1,J^2]=i\epsilon^{12k}J^k## . Repeated index implies summation. But, since i,j,k cannot be equal, then it must be that ##k=0##.
##\implies\ [J^1,J^2]=i\epsilon^{123}J^3=iJ^3##. Just another quick example, ##[J^1,J^1]=i\epsilon^{11k}J^k=0## since ##\epsilon^{11k}=0## for all k.

Hopefully that clears up a bit of confusion.

EDIT: I think this was the problem. The Einstein Summation convention is typically used - meaning that wherever you see a repeated index on the same side of an equation, those are dummy indices that are actually summed over.
The explicit equation is the ## [J^i,J^j]=i\sum_{k=1}^3\epsilon^{ijk}J^k ##
 
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  • #17
I thought only contravariant indices that were repeate as covariant indices or vice versa implied summation. That makes sense, though.
 
  • #18
Hmmm... So it doesn't explicitly say that that is the case, however, it sure does imply it.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Einstein_notation#Common_operations_in_this_notation

What I'm curious about is if it is indeed acceptable to sum over to contravariant indices, why they would use the Levi-Civita tensor in this manner.
Wikipedia said:
##\textbf{u}\times \textbf{v} = \epsilon^i_{jk}u^jv^k\textbf{e}_i##
and ##\epsilon_{ijk}## is the Levi-Civita symbol. Based on this definition of ##\epsilon##, there is no difference between ##\epsilon^i_{jk}## and ##\epsilon_{ijk}## but the position of indices.
Why would they use this particular arrangement of indices? I suppose I don't ever really remember reading that one has to be co and the other contravariant, but it seems that this is the first time I've seen it not that way.
 
  • #19
BiGyElLoWhAt said:
Hmmm... So it doesn't explicitly say that that is the case, however, it sure does imply it.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Einstein_notation#Common_operations_in_this_notation

What I'm curious about is if it is indeed acceptable to sum over to contravariant indices, why they would use the Levi-Civita tensor in this manner.

Why would they use this particular arrangement of indices? I suppose I don't ever really remember reading that one has to be co and the other contravariant, but it seems that this is the first time I've seen it not that way.
If the expressions are set in curved spacetime then the index position is important.
Except for the Levi-Civita pseudo tensor, where only the index order is relevant.

So indexes of ##\epsilon## can be adjusted to suit any arrangement of the other indexes.
 
Last edited:
  • #20
Ok. I'll have to look into that. Most of my experience with this notation is GR, so that would explain why I got that impression. Thanks.
 

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