Understanding Euclidean Group E(n) Elements

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the elements of the Euclidean group E(n) and their operations, particularly focusing on the multiplication of two elements represented as (O, b) and the implications of linearity in transformations. The scope includes theoretical aspects and mathematical reasoning related to group operations in the context of physics and mathematics.

Discussion Character

  • Technical explanation
  • Mathematical reasoning
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • One participant describes the structure of elements in the Euclidean group E(n) and presents two methods for multiplying these elements, expressing uncertainty about the correctness of each method.
  • Another participant suggests that the first method incorrectly applies the distributive law, leading to an erroneous result.
  • A third participant points out that the transformation is not linear, indicating that the sum of transformations does not equal the transformation of sums in general.
  • One participant humorously notes that the non-linearity issue arises from the translations involved in the transformations.
  • Another participant recommends looking into affine transformations for further understanding of the topic.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the application of the distributive law in the context of group operations, with some agreeing on the non-linearity of transformations while others explore the implications of this non-linearity. The discussion remains unresolved regarding the correctness of the two methods presented.

Contextual Notes

The discussion highlights limitations in understanding the application of linearity in transformations and the specific conditions under which the distributive property may or may not apply. There are unresolved mathematical steps in the reasoning presented by the participants.

ChrisVer
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Well I am not sure if this thread belongs here or in mathematics/groups but since it also has to do with physics, I think SR would be the correct place.
An element of the Euclidean group [itex]E(n)[/itex] can be written in the form [itex](O,\vec{b})[/itex] which acts:
[itex]\vec{x} \rightharpoondown O\vec{x}+\vec{b}[/itex]
With [itex]O \in O(n)[/itex] and [itex]\vec{b} \in R^{n}[/itex]
This would mean that the vector [itex]\vec{x}[/itex] would be rotated by some angle and then translated by a vector.

Now I'm having a certain problem. Since it's a group, the multiplication of two of its elements should be an element itself.
this I write:
[itex](O_{2},\vec{b_{2}})(O_{1},\vec{b_{1}})\vec{x}[/itex]
giving:
[itex](O_{2},\vec{b_{2}}) (O_{1}\vec{x}+\vec{b_{1}})[/itex]

From here I followed two paths which I think the first gives a wrong answer, while I'm pretty sure the 2nd gives the correct one... However I don't understand what's their difference.

wrong path
[itex](O_{2},\vec{b_{2}}) (O_{1}\vec{x}+\vec{b_{1}})=(O_{2},\vec{b_{2}}) O_{1}\vec{x}+(O_{2},\vec{b_{2}}) \vec{b_{1}}[/itex]
which gives:
[itex]O_{2} O_{1}\vec{x}+\vec{b_{2}} +O_{2} \vec{b_{1}} + \vec{b_{2}}[/itex]
see the two times of [itex]\vec{b_{2}}[/itex] appearing

correct path
I write that:
[itex](O_{2},\vec{b_{2}}) (O_{1}\vec{x}+\vec{b_{1}})=(O_{2},\vec{b_{2}}) \vec{x_{2}}[/itex]
So I get:
[itex]O_{2}\vec{x_{2}}+\vec{b_{2}}[/itex]
and reentering the definition of [itex]x_{2}=O_{1}\vec{x}+\vec{b_{1}}[/itex] I get:
[itex]O_{2}O_{1}\vec{x}+O_{2}\vec{b_{1}}+\vec{b_{2}}[/itex]

So here we have [itex]\vec{b_{2}}[/itex] only once...
I was able to distinguish the correct from the wrong due to physical imaging (by double rotations and translations), however I don't understand (or more precisely see) what's the difference (and so the wrong in the 1st case) between the two approaches...
 
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In method 1 you're trying to use the distributive law where it does not apply. You're saying Tb(x + y) = (x + b) + (y + b), whereas it should be just Tb(x + y) = x + y + b.
 
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In other words, the transformation is not linear. f(x+y) not equal to f(x) + f(y) in general.
 
I think the problem of non-linearity is in the translations part... that's kinda funny, thanks...
 
yep. it is pretty interesting. try looking up affine transformation, that should give more info on this topic.
 

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