Understanding Gravity: The Relationship Between Mass and Acceleration

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Discussion Overview

The discussion centers on the nature of gravity, specifically the relationship between mass and acceleration under gravitational influence. Participants explore theoretical concepts, the implications of Newton's laws, and the philosophical questions surrounding the understanding of gravity.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Conceptual clarification
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • One participant notes that while a 1kg mass accelerates at 10ms^-2 under a 10N force, a more massive object would accelerate less under the same force, raising questions about why all objects accelerate at ~9.81ms^-2 under Earth's gravity.
  • Another participant clarifies that the acceleration due to gravity is not constant and varies with distance from the Earth's center, referencing Newton's Universal Law of Gravitation.
  • Some participants discuss the proportional relationship between gravitational force and mass, as described by Newton's equation, but express dissatisfaction with the lack of deeper explanation for "why" gravity behaves this way.
  • One participant mentions that Einstein found the relationship between mass and gravity troubling, leading to the development of general relativity, which posits that gravity may be an effect of inertia in non-inertial frames of reference.
  • Another participant highlights the historical context of the equivalence of inertial and gravitational mass, suggesting that general relativity provides insights into this relationship.
  • There are discussions about the nature of gravity, including views that it can be seen as a force or as curvature of space-time, and the theoretical existence of gravitons as mediators of gravitational force.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express various viewpoints on the nature of gravity and its relationship with mass, indicating that multiple competing views remain. There is no consensus on a definitive explanation for gravity or its underlying principles.

Contextual Notes

Participants acknowledge limitations in their understanding and the complexity of the topic, with some noting that current research is ongoing in the field of gravity. The discussion reflects a mix of established theories and speculative ideas.

Who May Find This Useful

This discussion may be of interest to those exploring fundamental physics concepts, particularly students and enthusiasts seeking to understand the complexities of gravity and its implications in both classical and modern physics.

barnaby
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This is something that's been troubling me for a while:

If I were to pull a 1kg mass with a force of 10N, it would accelerate at 10ms^-2. If I applied the same force to an object twice as massive, its acceleration would be half as large.

However, everything accelerates at ~9.81ms^-2 under the gravity of the Earth. This suggests to me that gravity pulls harder on more massive objects than it does on less massive ones - and I don't understand how that can be.
 
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everything accelerates at ~9.81ms^-2 under the gravity of the Earth.
Not quite. The value of (approximately) 9.8ms^-2 is at the surface of a perfectly spherical object with a mass of roughly 6e24Kg, and a radius of 6400Km. (Or a point particle with the same mass, with the test mass 6400Km away.) In other words, an idealised Earth. In many textbook problems, say ones involving projectiles, you might have been asked to assume that that acceleration due to gravity stays constant with height. That is because the value varies very little for
heights << radius of Earth. In reality, the value of acceleration changes, since the force of gravity is inversely proportional to the square of the distance between the two objects.
 
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Newton's Universal Law of Gravitation:
the magnitude of the gravitational force on m due to M
F_{grav}= \frac{GMm}{r^2}
is proportional to the target mass m (and the source mass M).
 
Gravity pulls harder on more massive objects because the force of gravity between two objects is porportional to the product of the two masses, as shown in Newtons's equation:

F_g = \frac{GM_1 M_2}{d^2}
 
I appreciate that that is true, but I can't really accept that as an explanation for *why* - as it just puts into an equation what I sort of already knew - I suppose the question I really want to ask is "what is gravity?"...

___

So \frac{GM_1 M_2}{d^2} gives the force with which one object's 'gravity' will pull on another object? What is G in the equation? How do you define/calculate it?

___

I'm sorry if I'm annoying you - the only explanation my physics teacher provides is 'because God made it that way'...
 
barnaby said:
the only explanation my physics teacher provides is 'because God made it that way'...
What?

As to your question, G is a constant, which has a value of approximatley 6.67 x 1011 Nm2Kg-2 in the SI units.

This site might be helpful
http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/grav.html#grav
 
barnaby said:
I appreciate that that is true, but I can't really accept that as an explanation for *why* - as it just puts into an equation what I sort of already knew - I suppose the question I really want to ask is "what is gravity?"...

___

So \frac{GM_1 M_2}{d^2} gives the force with which one object's 'gravity' will pull on another object? What is G in the equation? How do you define/calculate it?

___

I'm sorry if I'm annoying you - the only explanation my physics teacher provides is 'because God made it that way'...

We don't really know why... although experiment shows that it's a pretty good description of gravity.
A lot current research is interested in understanding why...
...but to get there we have to understand as much as we can about it...
including what its implications are and how it can be checked against experiment.
 
neutrino said:
What?

That's what happens when you're taught science by someone who believes in Intelligent Design... :rolleyes:

Thanks for the link.
 
Don't feel to bad about being troubled by this particular property of gravity. No less a figure than Einstein found this issue troublesome - so much so that it led rather directly to the formulation of general relativity. Conceptually, the argument is something like this - other than gravity, every time we see a force proportional to the mass of the object it's acting on, it turns out that the force is really just the effect of the object's inertia when viewed in a non-inertial frame of referece. The canonical example of this is the centrifugal force. When you're in a rotating frame of reference (a car making a turn, a rollercoaster on a loop-the-loop, etc.), you feel like you're being pushed outwards from the center of rotation, when, in fact, what's really happening is that you're being pulled away from the straight-line path that inertia would have you take in the absence of the force causing your circular motion.

Einstein took this idea quite seriously and posited that gravity itself is just such an effect. This would mean that the only truly inertial frames of reference are those of objects in free-fall. The big complication from this is that difference free-falling paths in a non-uniform gravitational field do not have a common frame of reference. In other words, there are no universal inertial frames, only locally defined ones!
 
  • #10
This has troubled many physicists over many centuries. There is no reason for inertial mass (the mass found in F=ma) to be equivalent to gravitational mass (the mass of the object in Newton's universal law of gravitation). General relativity gives a nice explanation as to why this might be so.

As for your teacher, I'd seriously contemplate complaining to someone in power if those are the answers they're giving in class to student questions.

EDIT: Forgot to mention that if you're interested in reading a little more into the equivalence principle then the following living review is quite good. There are a few parts with some heavy maths in but mainly its just a lot of good explanations.

http://arxiv.org/PS_cache/gr-qc/pdf/0504/0504086v1.pdf
 
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  • #11
barnaby said:
I appreciate that that is true, but I can't really accept that as an explanation for *why* - as it just puts into an equation what I sort of already knew - I suppose the question I really want to ask is "what is gravity?"...

___

So \frac{GM_1 M_2}{d^2} gives the force with which one object's 'gravity' will pull on another object? What is G in the equation? How do you define/calculate it?

___

I'm sorry if I'm annoying you - the only explanation my physics teacher provides is 'because God made it that way'...

robphy said:
We don't really know why... although experiment shows that it's a pretty good description of gravity.
A lot current research is interested in understanding why...
...but to get there we have to understand as much as we can about it...
including what its implications are and how it can be checked against experiment.

we have some theoretical reason to believe that the force of gravity be proportional to both of the masses. and because an inverse-square relationship is natural in a 3-D space, there seems to me to be some theoretical preference to Newton's gravitational law.F_G = (4 \pi G)\frac{m_1 m_2}{4 \pi r^2}

i just think that 4 \pi G is a more "fundamental" constant of proportionality than just G.
 
  • #12
barnaby said:
I'm sorry if I'm annoying you - the only explanation my physics teacher provides is 'because God made it that way'...

I believe in Intelligent Design, but I completely abhor such mentality; answering questions like that when there is well scientific and mathematical elucidation. It reflects indolence and capitulation without putting in any effort in understanding nature... how are we going to progress if we keep giving that answer?

Sorry for going off topic, but yeah, the Earth do pull larger objects with greater force.

As for what is gravity, to put it simply, it can be thought as a force (Newton), or curvature of space-time (Einstein). The Standard Model of Particles hypothesised the Graviton, the particle that mediates gravitational force between particles of matter. It can be thought that exchange of Gravitons between particles is what causes gravity.

As for what REALLY is gravity, no one really knows yet. Even if we discover a better explanation for gravity in the future, there will always be some doubt in the newly discovered theory... Like what Richard Feynman said, you need some doubt in science to progress... or something like that.

Correct me if I'm wrong.
 

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