martinbn
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It's used to compute the correlation functions, which in turn are used to compute many physical quantities such as the S-matrix.martinbn said:For instance if the space-time point ##x## is here and now (with respect to me) and the space-time point ##y## tomorrow at noon in Paris, what is the meaning of the product of the two values of the field ##O## at these two events?
It's not a field, it's a product of fields. (You do realize that here the word "field" has nothing to do with fields in abstract algebra, do you?) There is absolutely no mathematical problem with this product in classical field theory.martinbn said:And if you take all these products over all pairs of events, why is that a field. This is impossible to make sense even in a classical/nonquantum field theory without the mathematical subtleties!
Of course, but that's my point. The question in this thread was to give an example of a non-local FIELD. Now you say that your example is NOT A FIELD!Demystifier said:It's not a field, it's a product of fields. (You do realize that here the word "field" has nothing to do with fields in abstract algebra, do you?) There is absolutely no mathematical problem with this product in classical field theory.
Same as above. Of course you can do that. How is that relevant to the question. You may as well have given an example of some completely different mathematical object.vanhees71 said:Here we have a distribution defined on test functions of two real variables (you can take ##C_0^{\infty}(\mathbb{R}^2)##, ##(x,y) \mapsto f(x,y)##).
Fair enough! But as I said several times, it can still be viewed as a field if ##y## is treated as a constant. Just like ##f(x)f(y)## can be viewed as a function of one variable if ##y## is treated as a constant.martinbn said:Of course, but that's my point. The question in this thread was to give an example of a non-local FIELD. Now you say that your example is NOT A FIELD!
But if you multiply something by a constant, then it is not much different than the original. How is ##5O## nonlocal if ##O## was local, whatever local means in this context? Is this related to the fact that here we don't have numbers but operators and they don't commute, and we are not multiplying by a constant number but a constant operator? How? Is it ok to multiply like that?Demystifier said:Fair enough! But as I said several times, it can still be viewed as a field if ##y## is treated as a constant. Just like ##f(x)f(y)## can be viewed as a function of one variable if ##y## is treated as a constant.
Of course. I thought it was obvious all along. Let ##O(x)=e^{-ipx}O(0)e^{ipx}## where ##p## is the translation operator. By definition, this equality means that ##O(x)## is a local operator. Now consider the operatormartinbn said:Is this related to the fact that here we don't have numbers but operators and they don't commute, and we are not multiplying by a constant number but a constant operator?
You asked for the definition, and I gave it. I don't know, what's so difficult to accept that a non-local operator depends not only on one space-time argument. There's nothing to understand, because it's a definition.martinbn said:Of course, but that's my point. The question in this thread was to give an example of a non-local FIELD. Now you say that your example is NOT A FIELD!
Same as above. Of course you can do that. How is that relevant to the question. You may as well have given an example of some completely different mathematical object.
Demystifier said:By the requirement of closure under the action of ##O(x)## for all ##x##.
vanhees71 said:For free fields it's the usual Fock space.
I was working in one dimension. Some still cannot understand what is local operator in one dimension, so four dimensions would be an overkill.vanhees71 said:##O(7)## doesn't make sense to begin with. ##x## and ##y## are four-vector arguments.
Take, for example, free scalar (Klein-Gordon) field ##\phi(x)##. Aren't ##\phi(x)## and ##\phi(y)## operators on the same vector space?PeterDonis said:I'm sorry, but this doesn't help. The action of ##O(x)## for any given ##x## doesn't change ##x##. So this still doesn't help me to understand how ##O(x)## and ##O(y)##, with ##y \neq x##, can both be operators on the same vector space. Why is there not a separate vector space for each individual ##x##?
So what? Have you ever calculated something like ##\phi(x)|0\rangle## for the free scalar field?PeterDonis said:The basis states in the Fock space are, as you said in another post, plane waves, which means they aren't localized to any position at all.
vanhees71 said:For a free field you have an expansion in terms of creation and annihilation operators wrt. some energy eigenbasis.
Why is it likely not to exist for QED?vanhees71 said:Yes. We all know that the physicists' reckless manipulations with distributions leads to trouble since around 1926. As I said above, the physicists have also found ways to cure it (normal ordering, renormalization) and mathematicians have made it rigorous as far as they could get it rigorous (e.g., the Epstein-Glaser approach to perturbation theory, where the product of local operators and distributions are made rigorous). AFAIK the problem, whether a realistic interacting QFT exists in a rigorous sense, is not solved yet. For QED it's likely not to exist, while for QCD (asymptotic free gauge theory) it may well be, but nobody knows it for sure yet.
In addition, there is a lot of evidence (e.g. from lattice computations) that QED in the continuum limit is trivial.vanhees71 said:Because there seems to be a Landau pole. I'm not an expert in axiomatic QFT, but afaik there's no complete proof for the rigorous existence of QED.
Demystifier said:In addition, there is a lot of evidence (e.g. from lattice computations) that QED in the continuum limit is trivial.
The expected notation would be ##\delta (x, y)##.stevendaryl said:Some of the contention in this discussion follows from physicists' sloppiness about making distinctions. The symbol ##x## can mean:
Similarly, an expression such as ##f(x)## can either mean a function, or the value of the function at a particular unspecified argument ##x##.
- An operator (the position operator, in QM---there is no position operator in QFT).
- A variable
- An unspecified constant
I don't think that these ambiguities cause problems for physicists working alone, but they cause problems for communication.
The specific example ##\delta(x) \delta(y)## is yet another ambiguous expression. Since ##\delta(x)## is a distribution, this expression appears to be the product of distributions, which is undefined.
However, we can certainly make sense of it as a distribution on ##R^2##. That is, as a functional ##F## that takes a function ##f## of type ##R^2 \Rightarrow C## and returns an element of ##C##.
##F(f) = f(0,0)##
Writing this as ##F(f) = \int dx dy f(x,y) \delta(x) \delta(y)## is no more an abuse of mathematical notation than the notation ##\delta(x)## in the first place. For most purposes, the notation is useful, as long as you have a feel for when it gets you into trouble.
"Continuum limit" is the key word. In actual calculations of loop diagrams one performs a regularization which avoids dealing with the continuum limit. For more on triviality see e.g.stevendaryl said:Professor: "Class, for your examination today, I want you to compute the magnetic moment of the electron using QED. That might seem like a lot of work to accomplish in one hour, but we have evidence that QED is actually trivial."
But ##\delta^{(2)}(x,y)=\delta(x) \delta(y)## (and this is not sloppy nor in any way undefined btw.).martinbn said:The expected notation would be ##\delta (x, y)##.
"You have to do calculations in the Interaction picture. It doesn't exist, but I don't care, just shutup and calculate!" ;-)).stevendaryl said:Professor: "Class, for your examination today, I want you to compute the magnetic moment of the electron using QED. That might seem like a lot of work to accomplish in one hour, but we have evidence that QED is actually trivial."
stevendaryl said:Professor: "Class, for your examination today, I want you to compute the magnetic moment of the electron using QED. That might seem like a lot of work to accomplish in one hour, but we have evidence that QED is actually trivial."
It is at best sloppy.vanhees71 said:But ##\delta^{(2)}(x,y)=\delta(x) \delta(y)## (and this is not sloppy nor in any way undefined btw.).
Can you give me a title and a page.vanhees71 said:Why? The definition is
$$\int_{\mathbb{R}} \mathrm{d} x \int_{\mathbb{R}} \mathrm{d} y f(x,y) \delta(x) \delta(y)=f(0,0).$$
That's well-defined and standard in all the literature I know.
I found it. It is sloppy there too.vanhees71 said:This should be in any textbook dealing with ##\delta## distributions. One concrete example is
M. L. Boas, Mathematical Methods in the Physical Sciences
It looks like a product, but it is something else.vanhees71 said:Perhaps we should open another thread somewhere in the Math forum, but why is this sloppy? I'm not a mathematician, but I cannot imagine that there's something problematic with this formula. One way to prove it is to use some weak limit, e.g., of Gaussians in the limit of vanishing standard deviations. There the functions factorize, and I don't see why there is a problem with taking the weak limit leading to the factorization of the multi-dimensional ##\delta##-distribution, i.e., like
$$\delta^{(3)}(\vec{x}-\vec{x}_0)=\delta(x-x_0) \delta(y-y_0) \delta(z-z_0).$$
What?martinbn said:It looks like a product, but it is something else.
Perhaps it doesn't exist by a mathematician's definition of "exists", but it exists by a physicist's definition. If it gives good results, then it exists. And if its existence contradicts certain axioms, then so much worse for the axioms.vanhees71 said:"You have to do calculations in the Interaction picture. It doesn't exist, but I don't care, just shutup and calculate!" ;-)).
The Dirac delta on a different space of test funtions.Demystifier said:What?
It is not the undefined (point-wise) product of distributions. It is the well-defined direct product of distributions which is commutative and associative: \delta^{3}(\vec{x}) = \left( \delta (x_{1}) \delta (x_{2})\right) \ \delta (x_{3}) = \delta (x_{1}) \ \left( \delta (x_{2}) \delta (x_{3})\right), or \delta^{3}(\vec{x}) = \delta^{2} (x_{1} , x_{2}) \ \delta (x_{3}) = \delta (x_{1}) \ \delta^{2}(x_{2} ,x_{3}).martinbn said:It looks like a product, but it is something else.
Again, it exists after doing some regularization and taking the appropriate weak limit at the end of the calcultion. One most simple way is to introduce a finite spatial "quantization volume" and imposing periodic spatial boundary conditions for the fields. For a through treatment about the "irrelevance" of Haag's theorem FAPP, seeDemystifier said:Perhaps it doesn't exist by a mathematician's definition of "exists", but it exists by a physicist's definition. If it gives good results, then it exists. And if its existence contradicts certain axioms, then so much worse for the axioms.![]()
What do you mean by that. Of course a "3D ##\delta## distribution" is a linear form on some corresponding test-function space, e.g,. ##C_0^{\infty}(\mathbb{R}^3)##. I really don't see any problem with this kind of "product". At least it works FAPP. E.g., you need it to express it in terms of non-Cartesian coordinates, likemartinbn said:The Dirac delta on a different space of test funtions.
samalkhaiat said:It is not the undefined (point-wise) product of distributions. It is the well-defined direct product of distributions which is commutative and associative: \delta^{3}(\vec{x}) = \left( \delta (x_{1}) \delta (x_{2})\right) \ \delta (x_{3}) = \delta (x_{1}) \ \left( \delta (x_{2}) \delta (x_{3})\right), or \delta^{3}(\vec{x}) = \delta^{2} (x_{1} , x_{2}) \ \delta (x_{3}) = \delta (x_{1}) \ \delta^{2}(x_{2} ,x_{3}).
vanhees71 said:What do you mean by that. Of course a "3D ##\delta## distribution" is a linear form on some corresponding test-function space, e.g,. ##C_0^{\infty}(\mathbb{R}^3)##. I really don't see any problem with this kind of "product". At least it works FAPP. E.g., you need it to express it in terms of non-Cartesian coordinates, like
$$\delta^{(3)}(\vec{x}-\vec{x}')=\frac{1}{r^2 \sin \vartheta} \delta(r-r') \delta(\vartheta-\vartheta') \delta(\varphi-\varphi')$$
for spherical coordinates. Here of course you have to be careful with the coordinate singularity along the polar axis.
Who said that?martinbn said:nonlocal quantum field ... is supposed to be a function/distribution on space-time, not on the product of two copies of space-time.
That's what a local quantum field is. A distribution on spacetime satisfying some axioms. If you ask for a nonlocal one, it has to be the same type of object, that doesn't satisfy these axioms. Otherwise you can literary give anything as an example. Say here is the equations of a parabola ##y=x^2##, this is not a local quantum field, thus it is what you are looking for!Demystifier said:Who said that?
Intuitively, a nonlocal field is something that should have the following properties:martinbn said:That's what a local quantum field is. A distribution on spacetime satisfying some axioms. If you ask for a nonlocal one, it has to be the same type of object, that doesn't satisfy these axioms. Otherwise you can literary give anything as an example. Say here is the equations of a parabola ##y=x^2##, this is not a local quantum field, thus it is what you are looking for!
This is also true for the local ones. That is why they are distributions, not functions.Demystifier said:Intuitively, a nonlocal field is something that should have the following properties:
(i) It is an operator that acts on the same vector space as the local field ##O(x)##.
(ii) It cannot be associated with one point ##x##.
Perhaps the best example of a nonlocal field (best in the sense that mathematical physicists frequently use it) is a smeared operator
$$O(f)=\int dx\, O(x)f(x)$$
where ##f(x)## is a smearing function.
And what is the definition of a local field? So far no one answered that. An example was given, then i asked is every local field of that type, no one answered. In the article nothing along these lines was said. So, can anyone give the definition and a reference?vanhees71 said:A definition is a definition. There's not much to argue about it, and @Demystifier gave examples of "non-loacal operators" early on in this thread. I'm a bit lost, about what we are discussing, agreeing, or disagreeing.