Understanding Phase Curves and Directionality in ODE Systems

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around understanding the phase curves of a system of ordinary differential equations (ODEs) and determining the directionality of these curves in different quadrants. Participants explore the behavior of the system defined by the equations dx2/dt = -4x1 and dx1/dt = x2, particularly focusing on the nature of the phase graph and the flow direction around the ellipses formed by the solutions.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • One participant asserts that the curves of x2 as a function of x1 are ellipses but questions the consistency of the direction of movement around these ellipses in different quadrants.
  • Another participant provides examples at specific points, arguing that the flow around the ellipse is clockwise, countering the first participant's uncertainty about directionality.
  • A participant expresses confusion regarding the behavior of x2 when x1 is positive and x2 is negative, suggesting that x2 should increase in that quadrant based on their analysis of dx2/dx1.
  • Further clarification is provided that while x2 may increase as x1 increases, the overall flow direction as time increases in the fourth quadrant is still clockwise.
  • A later participant inquires about how to determine whether the flow is clockwise or counterclockwise based on the derivatives, referencing a source but unable to recall the details.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the behavior of the phase curves in various quadrants, with some asserting a consistent clockwise direction while others question this consistency. The discussion remains unresolved regarding the interpretation of directionality in specific scenarios.

Contextual Notes

Participants rely on specific points in the phase space to analyze the flow direction, but there are unresolved assumptions regarding the behavior of the system in different quadrants and the implications of the derivatives.

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Well I need to find the phase graph of the next system of ode:
dx2/dt=-4x1
dx1/dt=x2
now i know the curves of x2 as a function of x1 are ellipses, but in what direction.
I mean obviously i need to check dx2/dx1, and from this find if x2 is decreasing or increasing, so for the first quadrant obviously it goes clockwise cause dx2/dx1<0 so x2 in this quadrant is decreasing, the same analysis i did with the other quadrants but shouldn't it have a consistent direction, I mean from my analysis not every part of the ellipse in every quadrant moves clockwise.

can this be ok?
or am i way off here?

thanks in advance.
 
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What happens at the point (1, 0)? If x1= 1 and x2= 0, then dx2/dt= -4 and dx1/dt= 0: x2 is decreasing while x1 stays the same. That's going downward and indicates that the flow around the ellipse is clockwise.

Your statement "from my analysis not every part of the ellipse in every quadrant moves clockwise" is just wrong. if x1= 0 and x2= 1, dx2/dt= 0, dx1/dt= 1 so the flow is to the right: again clockwise. If x1= 0 and x2= -1, dx2/dt= 0, dx1/dt= -1: clockwise. If x1= -1 and x2= 0, dx2/dt= 4, dx1/dt= 0: clockwise.
 
my way is like this:
dx2/dx1=-(4x1/x2) so for x1>0 and x2<0 dx2/dx1>0, so x2 should increase in this quadrant, should it not?

I hope you can clear this issue to me.
thanks in advance.
 
loop quantum gravity said:
my way is like this:
dx2/dx1=-(4x1/x2) so for x1>0 and x2<0 dx2/dx1>0, so x2 should increase in this quadrant, should it not?

I hope you can clear this issue to me.
thanks in advance.

As x1 increases, yes x2 increases: the tangent line to the ellipse is increasing.
And as x1 decreases, x2 decreases.

But that's not the question! You are talking about what happens as t increases. In the fourth quadrant, both x1 and x2 decrease as t increases.

The flow around the ellipse is clockwise.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
ok, thanks.
 
i have another question:
how can i tell when it's counterclockwise or clockwise telling from those derivatives?
I mean in clockwise the angle which is also the slope is defined to be negative, i feel that i read it in courant's first volume of intro to clalc, but can't seem to remember.
 

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