Understanding Sound Waves in Fluids: Pressure and Velocity Fields

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the behavior of sound waves in fluids, specifically examining the relationships between pressure, velocity fields, and their respective wave equations. Participants explore the mathematical foundations and physical implications of these relationships, including the conditions under which various quantities obey wave equations.

Discussion Character

  • Technical explanation
  • Mathematical reasoning
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants assert that both pressure and the density of a fluid satisfy the wave equation, while the velocity field's behavior is more complex and may depend on the existence of a scalar potential.
  • One participant provides a detailed derivation involving Euler's equation and the continuity equation, leading to the conclusion that pressure and density obey the wave equation.
  • Another participant questions whether the velocity field can be shown to obey the wave equation if its scalar potential does, expressing uncertainty about the proof.
  • There is a discussion about the conditions required for the wave operator to commute with the gradient operator, with one participant noting that continuity of partial derivatives is necessary.
  • Some participants express a sense of realization or regret about not having identified certain relationships or proofs themselves.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants generally agree that pressure and density obey the wave equation, but there is uncertainty regarding the velocity field and its potential. The discussion includes competing views on the implications of the scalar potential and the conditions for commutation of operators.

Contextual Notes

Participants acknowledge the need for assumptions about the continuity and differentiability of the fields involved, which may affect the validity of their arguments.

Delta2
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TL;DR
Waves of pressure, velocity or both?
When we talk about sound waves in a fluid (air, water e.t.c.) we mean that the pressure ##P(x,y,z,t)## satisfies the wave equation, the so called velocity field of the fluid ##v(x,y,z,t)## satisfies the wave equation or both?
 
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Velocity is the derivative of position, i.e. number density, i.e. pressure.,
 
Vanadium 50 said:
Velocity is the derivative of position, i.e. number density, i.e. pressure.,
That doesn't make sense. The flow field, ##\vec{v}(t,\vec{x})## is the velocity of a fluid element, being momentarily at position ##\vec{x}## at time, ##t## (Eulerian description).

To answer the question in the OP: You start with Euler's equation of a free particle
$$\rho (\partial_t \vec{v} +(\vec{v} \cdot \vec{\nabla} \vec{v})=-\vec{\nabla} P$$
and the continuity equation for mass
$$\partial_t \rho + \vec{\nabla} \cdot (\rho \vec{v})=0.$$
In addition you need an equation of state, which we take as a polytrope
$$P=P_0 \left (\frac{\rho}{\rho_0} \right)^n.$$
Here ##(\rho_0,P_0)## is the mass density and pressure of the fluid at rest, and we assume that the deviations from these values and the velocity field itself are small, so that we can linearize the equations:
$$\rho_0 \partial_t \vec{v} = -\vec{\nabla} P, \qquad (1)$$
$$\partial_t \rho + \rho_0 \vec{\nabla} \cdot \vec{v}=0. \qquad (2)$$
In this approximation
$$\vec{\nabla} P=v_{\text{s}}^2 \vec{\nabla} \rho \quad \text{with} \quad v_{\text{s}}^2=\left .\frac{\mathrm{d} P}{\mathrm{d} \rho} \right|_{\rho=\rho_0}= n \frac{P_0}{\rho_0}.$$
For an adiabatic equation of state (which is consistent with the assumption of a perfect fluid made above), you have ##n=C_p/C_v##. For an ideal gas that's ##n=(f+2)/f##. The air, consisting mostly of molecules with two atoms, ##f=5##, and thus ##n=1.4##. In any case we get from (1)
$$\rho_0 \partial_t \vec{v}=-v_{\text{s}}^2 \vec{\nabla} \rho. \qquad (3)$$
Taking the divergence gives
$$\rho_0 \partial_t \vec{\nabla} \cdot \vec{v}=-v_{\text{s}}^2 \Delta \rho.$$
Taking the time-derivative of (2) finally leads to the wave equation for the density,
$$\frac{1}{v_{\text{s}}^2} \partial_t^2 \rho + \Delta \rho=0.$$
The same equation holds for ##P## since at the same linear order of the deviations from the equilibrium
$$P=P_0 + v_s^2 (\rho-\rho_0).$$
Concerning ##\vec{v}## we have to assume that it is irrotational, i.e., there's a potential for it
$$\vec{v}=-\vec{\nabla} \Phi. \qquad (4)$$
Then from (2)
$$\partial_t \rho - \rho_0 \Delta \Phi=0. \qquad (5)$$
Plugging (4) in (3) we find
$$\rho_0 \partial_t \Phi=v_{\text{s}}^2 \rho \; \Rightarrow \; \partial_t \rho=\frac{\rho_0}{v_{\text{s}}^2} \partial_t^2 \Phi$$, and finally plugging this again into (5), also the velocity potential obeys the same wave equation as ##\rho## and ##P##:
$$\frac{1}{v_{\text{s}}^2} \partial_t^2 \Phi-\Delta \Phi=0.$$
So all these quantities obey the wave equation with the phase velocity ##v_{\text{s}}##, which thus is the sound velocity.
 
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@vanhees71 So Pressure and density obey the wave equation but for velocity, the scalar potential (if it exists) of the velocity field obeys the wave equation right?

If the potential of a vector field obeys the wave equation, then can we prove that the vector field obeys the wave equation too? (Tried to prove it myself but to no result ).
 
Delta2 said:
@vanhees71 So Pressure and density obey the wave equation but for velocity, the scalar potential (if it exists) of the velocity field obeys the wave equation right?

If the potential of a vector field obeys the wave equation, then can we prove that the vector field obeys the wave equation too? (Tried to prove it myself but to no result ).
But since ##\frac{1}{v_{\text{s}}^2} \partial_t^2 -\Delta## commutes with ##\vec{\nabla}## then also ##\vec{v}## must obey the wave equation.
 
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vanhees71 said:
But since ##\frac{1}{v_{\text{s}}^2} \partial_t^2 -\Delta## commutes with ##\vec{\nabla}## then also ##\vec{v}## must obey the wave equation.
Ok well that's wonderful but I am kind of sad that I couldn't see that myself.

BTW what are the exact mathematical conditions for the wave operator to commute with the gradient operator? Some "mixed" higher order partial derivatives of the potential of the velocity field must exist and be continuous right?

But yeah in physics we assume all the fields-potentials are infinitely differentiable in all possible ways e hehe.
 
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Yes, all the partial derivatives involved must be continuous for the mixed derivatives to commute.
 
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