Understanding the Concept of Backwards Integration in Definite Integrals

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Discussion Overview

The discussion centers on the concept of backwards integration in definite integrals, specifically addressing why integrating a continuous function over the interval [a, b] in reverse (from b to a) results in the negative of the integral from a to b. Participants explore definitions, properties, and implications of this concept.

Discussion Character

  • Technical explanation
  • Mathematical reasoning
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • One participant questions the visibility of the property of backwards integration from the usual definition, suggesting that defining integration in the opposite direction as negative aids in proving the fundamental theorem of calculus.
  • Another participant proposes a proof using the fundamental theorem of calculus, but acknowledges the potential for circular reasoning in assuming its validity.
  • A different participant provides a formal definition of the integral and explains that switching a and b leads to a negative delta x, thus introducing the negative sign in the integral.
  • Another participant suggests using the property of integrals that relates the sum of integrals over adjacent intervals to demonstrate the result, emphasizing that this is derived from Riemann sums.
  • One participant expresses concern about the implications of their textbook's definition, arguing that the definition restricts the ability to swap a and b when integrating backwards.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants do not reach a consensus on the implications of the definitions and properties discussed. There are competing views on the validity of certain approaches and the restrictions imposed by definitions.

Contextual Notes

Some participants note limitations in their understanding of the formal theory behind integration and the implications of definitions, which may affect the clarity of their arguments.

Red_CCF
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Hi

I have a question, if I have a function that is continuous on the interval [a, b] where a <= b, why would integrating this interval backwards (i.e. taking the definite integral from b to a) be the negative of taking the definite integral from a to b? Can someone explain this from the definition? Thanks.
 
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I don't think you can actually see this from the usual definition. One can define integration in the opposite direction as being negative; this I have heard allows us to prove the fundamental theorem of calculus.

Intuitively, it makes sense if you think of your partitions going in the opposite direction, so that each delta x in the Riemann sum is negative what it would have been. There is a formal theory behind this intuition, involving orienting manifolds, but I am not totally familiar with it.
 
I'm not sure how far you're into properties of integrals. For example, try proving that [tex]\int_a^b f(x)dx = -\int_b^a f(x)dx[/tex].
[tex]\int_a^b f(x)dx = F(b) - F(a)[/tex] by the Fundamental Theorem of Calculus
[tex]- \int_a^b f(x)dx = - F(b) + F(a)[/tex]
[tex]- \int_a^b f(x)dx = F(a) - F(b)[/tex]
[tex]- \int_a^b f(x)dx = \int_b^a f(x)dx[/tex]
[tex]\int_a^b f(x)dx = -\int_b^a f(x)dx[/tex]

Sorry, I haven't thought of a simpler way to explain it, but this is assuming that the fundamental theorem is true to begin with, which may be circular reasoning.
 
I believe that an integral is defined as follows:

[tex] \int_{a}^{b} f(x) dx = \lim_{n \rightarrow \infty} \sum_{i=1}^{n} f(x_i) \Delta x[/tex]

Where [tex]\Delta x = x_{i+1} - x_i[/tex].

Since we are going backwards, then a and b switch places and [tex]\Delta x < 0[/tex], hence the negative sign.
 
Or, use this: for any numbers a, b, c, [itex]\int_a^c f(x)dx= \int_a^b f(x)dx+ \int_b^c f(x)dx[/itex] when can be proven by writing each of the integrals as limits of Riemann sums.

Taking c= a, that says [itex]\int_a^a f(x)dx= 0= \inta^b f(x)dx+ \int_b^a f(x)dx[/itex] and so [itex]\int_a^b f(x) dx= -\int_b^a f(x) dx[/itex].

(Effectively, my, L'Hopital's, and Anonymous217's responses are all variations on the same thing- this result is implied by the definition of the integral in terms of the Riemann sums.)
 
Okay so the key is the delta X in the reimann sum. The thing is my textbook (Stewart) defined the integral as such:

It first set a<= x <=b and then set delta X = (b-a)/n where n is the number of intervals. In this case, I don't think I'm allowed to swap a and b as in l'hopital's explanation because the interval is defined as a being smaller than b, so I don't see how going backwards will permit me to change the definition.
 

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