Integration with different infinitesimal intervals

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the integration of functions over infinitesimal intervals, specifically examining the validity and implications of expressions such as $$\int_a^{a+da}f(x)dx=f(a)da$$ and $$\int_a^{a+dx}f(x)dx=f(a)dx$$. Participants express confusion regarding the roles of variables and differentials in these integrals, exploring concepts from regular calculus and non-standard analysis.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Conceptual clarification
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants question whether ##a## should be treated as a definite value rather than a variable in the context of the first integral, leading to confusion about the meaning of ##da##.
  • There is debate over whether ##da## and ##dx## can be considered equal or different, with some asserting that they are not the same.
  • Participants discuss the implications of defining a function ##a(x)## and whether this leads to contradictions regarding the relationship between ##a## and ##x##.
  • Clarifications are made regarding the use of dummy variables in integration, with some asserting that ##x## should not be used as an integration limit.
  • Some participants suggest that the first integral makes sense but may be an abuse of notation, while the second integral is generally deemed nonsensical.
  • There are references to different approaches to understanding differentials and their relationships to integrals, with some participants discussing the concept of infinitesimals in the context of non-standard analysis.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the validity of the integrals discussed, with no consensus reached on whether ##da## and ##dx## can be equated or if the second integral is meaningful. The discussion remains unresolved regarding the implications of treating ##a## as a variable versus a constant.

Contextual Notes

Participants note limitations in their understanding of the integration process, particularly regarding the treatment of variables and differentials. There is mention of the need for clarity on whether ##da## represents a finite change or a differential, and how this affects the interpretation of the integrals.

Who May Find This Useful

This discussion may be of interest to students and practitioners of calculus, particularly those exploring the foundations of integration and the use of infinitesimals in mathematical analysis.

  • #31
fresh_42 said:
It is questionable to use the integration variable ##t## indicated by ##dt## under the integral anywhere else.

The integral reads ##\int_a^b f(t)\,dt =\int_{t=a}^{t=b} f(t)\,dt.## This resulted in the equation ##t=x+\Delta t## for the upper bound as used in your linked article. It is disturbing to have the same variable ##t## in one equation but with two meanings! ##t=x+\Delta x## would have been the better choice.

It is further problematic to substitute ##\Delta x## by ##\delta x## or ##dx.## They have different meanings, even in case we consider ##\Delta x \to 0.## The understanding of ##dx## in their various contexts is difficult enough even without adding another context.
Thank you.

How about the upper limit of the equation in pbuk's post of this thread if we substitute ##\delta x## by ##\Delta x## giving:
$$\lim_{\Delta x \to 0} \int_a^{a+\Delta x} f(x) dx \approx \lim_{\Delta x \to 0} f(a) \Delta x$$
I'd expect you won't agree with this upper limit, even if ##a## is considered a value and not a variable? After all, ##x=a+\Delta x## would also show different meanings for ##x##.
 
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  • #32
JohnnyGui said:
Thank you.

How about the upper limit of the equation in pbuk's post of this thread if we substitute ##\delta x## by ##\Delta x## giving:
$$\lim_{\Delta x \to 0} \int_a^{a+\Delta x} f(x) dx \approx \lim_{\Delta x \to 0} f(a) \Delta x$$
I'd expect you won't agree with this upper limit, even if ##a## is considered a value and not a variable? After all, ##x=a+\Delta x## would also show different meanings for ##x##.
It breaches my first rule: never use the integration variable elsewhere. I would write it as
$$\lim_{\Delta a \to 0} \int_a^{a+\Delta a} f(x) dx \approx \lim_{\Delta a \to 0} f(a) \Delta a$$
Why use ##x## if we already have ##a## for values on the ##x##-axis? If you don't like the same ##a## in ##a+\Delta a## then ##\Delta a = h## is your letter of choice.

However, this rule is for clarity. As mentioned earlier ##\int_d^{d+\Delta d}f(d)dd## is possible to write. We use the same letter for quite a couple of different meanings and its position provides context and meaning. You would certainly agree that such a formula is a nightmare rather than an integral. You could do it, but I strongly recommend not. Same with the ##x## in its double role as an integration (dummy) variable and as an upper limit. You can do it, but it causes threads like this one with meanwhile 30+ posts.

More important is the idea behind the formula. Assume that ##F## is an anti-derivative of ##f,## i.e. ##F'=f.## Let further be ##F(x)=F(a)+F'(a)(x-a)+ O((x-a)^2)## the Taylor series of ##F.## Then
\begin{align*}
\lim_{\Delta a \to 0} \int_a^{a+\Delta a} f(x) dx&=\lim_{\Delta a \to 0}( F(a+\Delta a)-F(a))\\
&=\lim_{\Delta a \to 0}(F(a)+F'(a)\cdot(a+\Delta a -a)+ O((a+\Delta a -a)^2) - F(a))\\
&=\lim_{\Delta a \to 0}(f(a)\cdot \Delta a +O((\Delta a)^2))\\
&\approx\lim_{\Delta a \to 0}f(a)\cdot \Delta a
\end{align*}
Imagine if I had used ##\Delta x## instead of ##\Delta a.## How would you know the difference to the ##x## I used as a variable in the Taylor series? It would open up another discussion about naming objects in mathematics. I like the motto: different meaning requires different letter.
 
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