Understanding the Poynting Theorem

  • Thread starter Thread starter MatinSAR
  • Start date Start date
Click For Summary

Homework Help Overview

The discussion revolves around the Poynting Theorem, specifically the derivation of the equation \(\nabla \cdot \mathbf{S} = -\frac{\partial u}{\partial t} - \mathbf{J} \cdot \mathbf{E}\). Participants are exploring the implications of linear media on this derivation and the meanings of the terms involved, particularly in relation to energy flux and conservation.

Discussion Character

  • Conceptual clarification, Mathematical reasoning, Assumption checking

Approaches and Questions Raised

  • Participants are questioning whether a linear medium should be considered in the derivation of the Poynting Theorem. They discuss the implications of terms like \(-\mathbf{J} \cdot \mathbf{E}\) and its relation to energy conservation. Some participants are also exploring the relationship between the divergence of energy and the generation of energy in the context of electromotive force (emf).

Discussion Status

The discussion is ongoing, with participants providing insights and raising questions about the derivation and interpretation of terms in the Poynting Theorem. There is an exchange of ideas regarding the nature of permeability and its effects on the derivation, but no explicit consensus has been reached.

Contextual Notes

Some participants note that the permeability may not always be constant and can be a complex function, particularly in cases like ferromagnetism. This introduces additional considerations into the discussion about the assumptions made in the derivation.

MatinSAR
Messages
673
Reaction score
204
Homework Statement
Derive related equation using maxwell equations and describe each term.
Relevant Equations
Poynting Theorem.
Hello, I have two questions. First, when deriving ##\nabla \cdot \mathbf{S} = -\frac{\partial u}{\partial t} - \mathbf{J} \cdot \mathbf{E} ##, should we consider a linear medium? When we subtract ##\mathbf{E} \cdot (\nabla \times \mathbf{H})## from ## \mathbf{H} \cdot (\nabla \times \mathbf{E})##, we get ##-\mathbf{H} \cdot \frac{\partial \mathbf{B}}{\partial t} - \mathbf{E} \cdot \frac{\partial \mathbf{D}}{\partial t} - \mathbf{J} \cdot \mathbf{E}##. Knowing that ##\frac{d}{dt} (\mathbf{H} \cdot \mathbf{B}) = \frac{d}{dt} \mathbf{H} \cdot \mathbf{B} + \mathbf{H} \cdot \frac{d}{dt} \mathbf{B}##, for a linear medium with ##\mathbf B=\mathbf {\mu} \mathbf H## we can rewrite ## \mathbf{H} \cdot \frac{\partial \mathbf{B}}{\partial t}## as ##\frac{1}{2} \frac{d}{dt} (\mathbf{H} \cdot \mathbf{B})## or ##\frac{d}{dt} u_B ## because for a linear medium we can say that ##\frac{d}{dt} \mathbf{H} \cdot \mathbf{B}=\mathbf{H} \cdot \frac{d}{dt} \mathbf{B}##.

Applying the same process for the ##\mathbf E## part, we can derive the ##\frac{d}{dt} \mathbf{u_E}## term. Then we write ##\mathbf u=\mathbf{u_E} + \mathbf{u_B}##.
Is my understanding correct?

Second question: Is ##\nabla \cdot \mathbf{S}## the net energy flux passing a point? What does the term ##- \mathbf{J} \cdot \mathbf{E}## represent? I know that ##\mathbf{J} \cdot \mathbf{E}## is the work done by the field to move charges, but what does the negative sign indicate?
 
Last edited:
Physics news on Phys.org
MatinSAR said:
Homework Statement: Derive related equation using maxwell equations and describe each term.
Relevant Equations: Poynting Theorem.

Second question: Is ∇⋅S the net energy flux passing a point? What does the term −J⋅E represent? I know that J⋅E is the work done by the field to move charges, but what does the negative sign indicate?
Divergence is generation of energy. The sum of the three equals zero means energy conservation.
 
  • Like
Likes   Reactions: MatinSAR
anuttarasammyak said:
Divergence is generation of energy.
Like when we have an emf in the region?
 
Yes, decrease of u generates S to go.
 
  • Like
Likes   Reactions: MatinSAR
anuttarasammyak said:
Yes, decrease of u generates S to go.
Thank you for your help.
 
  • Like
Likes   Reactions: anuttarasammyak
MatinSAR said:
Homework Statement: Derive related equation using maxwell equations and describe each term.
Relevant Equations: Poynting Theorem.

Hello, I have two questions. First, when deriving ∇⋅S=−∂u∂t−J⋅E, should we consider a linear medium?
Permeability is defined by ratio of B and H. It is not always constant but can be complex function of multi-variables as ferro magnetism shows. Here its zero time derivative ,i.e. constant as for time, is used.
 
  • Like
Likes   Reactions: MatinSAR

Similar threads

Replies
19
Views
3K
Replies
3
Views
798
  • · Replies 6 ·
Replies
6
Views
3K
  • · Replies 1 ·
Replies
1
Views
2K
  • · Replies 1 ·
Replies
1
Views
2K
  • · Replies 0 ·
Replies
0
Views
2K
  • · Replies 1 ·
Replies
1
Views
2K
  • · Replies 2 ·
Replies
2
Views
2K
  • · Replies 9 ·
Replies
9
Views
2K
  • · Replies 8 ·
Replies
8
Views
2K