Using 4-Gradient to Apply Function to 4-Vector

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the application of the covariant 4-gradient to a function involving a 4-vector, specifically addressing the interpretation of the expression x^2 and the resulting calculations. Participants explore theoretical aspects, mathematical reasoning, and potential applications in physics.

Discussion Character

  • Technical explanation
  • Mathematical reasoning
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants inquire about the meaning of x^2, questioning whether it refers to the scalar product of the 4-vector or a contravariant vector.
  • There is a suggestion that if x^2 is the scalar product, the gradient operator can be applied like an ordinary 3-gradient on a scalar function.
  • One participant mentions an example where ∂_{μ} x^{μ} = 1, expressing confusion about how this result is obtained.
  • Another participant argues that the inner product should yield -2 instead of 1, and explains that applying a gradient to a vector results in a tensor.
  • There is a clarification that ∂_{μ} x^{μ} represents divergence rather than a gradient, leading to a different interpretation of the expression.
  • One participant asserts that ∂_{μ} x^{μ} = 4, which introduces further disagreement regarding the calculations.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the interpretation of x^2 and the results of applying the 4-gradient. No consensus is reached regarding the correct application or the resulting values from the calculations.

Contextual Notes

Participants note potential issues with index placement and the implications of using different metrics, which may affect the outcomes of their calculations.

chill_factor
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lets say we have a covariant 4-gradient ∂[itex]_{μ}[/itex] = (1/c ∂/∂t, ∇). How do I actually apply this to a function, say x^2 where x is an arbitrary 4-vector (ct,-x,-y,-z)?
 
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chill_factor said:
lets say we have a covariant 4-gradient ∂[itex]_{μ}[/itex] = (1/c ∂/∂t, ∇). How do I actually apply this to a function, say x^2 where x is an arbitrary 4-vector (ct,-x,-y,-z)?

What is x^2? Is it the scalar product of x*x or the contravariant vector ((ct)^2, -x^2, -y^2, -z^2)? If it is the latter, just contract:

[itex]\partial_\mu x^2^\mu[/itex]

If it is the former, I suppose you would apply it just like an ordinary 3-gradient on a scalar function.
 
Lavabug said:
What is x^2? Is it the scalar product of x*x or the contravariant vector ((ct)^2, -x^2, -y^2, -z^2)? If it is the latter, just contract:

[itex]\partial_\mu x^2^\mu[/itex]

If it is the former, I suppose you would apply it just like an ordinary 3-gradient on a scalar function.

that is what is bothering me as well. I assumed it was the scalar product, since it seems to me that you need a scalar function to apply a gradient operator, but in an example problem, the 4-gradient was applied to a 4-vector.

In an example I'm looking at, they tell me ∂[itex]_{μ}[/itex] x[itex]^{μ}[/itex] = 1 where x[itex]^{μ}[/itex] = (ct,-x,-y,-z). How did they get this?
 
Assuming your indices are in the right place, that inner product should give -2, not 1.

You can apply a gradient to a vector, all the time in fluid dynamics. It produces a tensor.

If it is instead ∂[itex]_{μ}[/itex] x[itex]_{μ}[/itex], using the minkowski metric with signature +,-,-,-, you could get something that looks like (1,1,1,1). If somehow that "1" you have in your example is supposed to be a vector with just 1's, this is what they did, otherwise I have no clue.
 
Last edited:
Lavabug said:
Assuming your indices are in the right place, that inner product should give -2, not 1.

You can apply a gradient to a vector, all the time in fluid dynamics. It produces a tensor.

If it is instead ∂[itex]_{μ}[/itex] x[itex]_{μ}[/itex], using the minkowski metric with signature +,-,-,-, you could get something that looks like (1,1,1,1).

thank you greatly. i believe i figured it out.
 
What was it, out of curiosity?
 
chill_factor said:
In an example I'm looking at, they tell me ∂[itex]_{μ}[/itex] x[itex]^{μ}[/itex] = 1
That is the divergence. The gradient is not being involved at all. [itex]\partial _{\mu }x^{\mu } = \partial _{t}x^{t} + \triangledown \cdot \vec{x}[/itex].
 
No, [itex]\partial_{\mu}x^{\mu} = 4[/itex].
 

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