Verifying Results w/ Newton's & Energy Laws: Justifying Hypotenuse=D

  • Thread starter Thread starter ChaoticNeutralStuden
  • Start date Start date
  • Tags Tags
    Energy Laws
Click For Summary

Homework Help Overview

The discussion revolves around verifying results related to Newton's laws and energy equations in the context of a block moving down a ramp and transitioning to a horizontal surface. Participants are exploring the relationship between the height, hypotenuse, and distance (D) in their calculations.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory, Conceptual clarification, Mathematical reasoning, Problem interpretation

Approaches and Questions Raised

  • Participants discuss their results from applying Newton's laws and energy equations, questioning the validity of their findings. They explore the relationship between the hypotenuse and distance D, and some seek clarification on the assumptions made in their calculations.

Discussion Status

Some participants have provided detailed workings to support their results, while others have raised concerns about the clarity and correctness of these approaches. There is an ongoing exploration of the implications of the ramp's abrupt transition to horizontal and how it affects the forces involved. Guidance has been offered regarding the interpretation of forces acting at different times.

Contextual Notes

Participants note that the homework was poorly translated, which may affect the clarity of the problem setup. There is also mention of constraints regarding the use of images for explanations, as well as uncertainty about the professor's expectations for the solution approach.

ChaoticNeutralStuden
Messages
3
Reaction score
0
Homework Statement
A block of mass m is released from rest at the top of a ramp with a slope angle θ and height h. The friction between the block and the ramp is small and can be disregarded. After descending the ramp, the block travels a horizontal distance D (in this section the friction is not negligible) until it comes to rest. Determine, using the information given above, the coefficient of kinetic friction between the block and the horizontal plane using:
A) Newton's laws.
B) The energy equations.
Relevant Equations
Newton's laws equations & energy equations
omg.png

Using the Newton's laws my result was h/hypotenuse and using the energy equations my result was h/D. My results are right ? And if so, how i justify the hypotenuse = D . Sorry for the bad english, the homework was poorly translated.
 
Physics news on Phys.org
ChaoticNeutralStuden said:
Using the Newton's laws my result was h/hypotenuse and using the energy equations my result was h/D. My results are right ? And if so, how i justify the hypotenuse = D . Sorry for the bad english, the homework was poorly translated.
Your answer is right (probably... see below), but your explanation of how you got to it makes no sense. How did you get h/hypotenuse from Newton's laws without even knowing what distance 'hypotenuse' refers to in this case?
Please show your working.

There is one awkward thing about the question: it shows the ramp turning to horizontal abruptly. In practice, that would mean an impact; only the horizontal component of velocity would be conserved. But you are probably expected to treat it as a smooth transition.
 
Using Newton's Law :
At the first moment(ramp):
ΣFx : m*g(sin θ )=m*a
a= g*(sin θ )
ΣFy = N-mg(cos θ )= 0
N=mg(cos θ )
When the block starts to travel D
ΣFy = N-mg=0
N=mg
Friction force = N*uc
Friction force = mg*uc

ΣFx : m*g(sin θ )- mg*uc =0
m*g(sin θ )= mg*uc
uc=sin θ
sin θ = h/ hypotenuse
uc= h/ hypotenuse

Using energy equations
At the first moment:
W = m*g(sin θ ) * h/sin θ = mgh
mgh = mv^2/2
v = (2gh)^(1/2)
When the block starts to travel D:
W= -(m*g*uc*D) = - (mv^2)/2

mgucD = m(2gh)/2
uc=h/D

I tried to type my working because I'm without my cellphone to take pictures of my notebook at the moment, I don't know if it's understandable, I considered the hypotenuse by getting the result of the coefficient of kinetic friction = sin θ, and by that considering sin θ = h/hypotenuse. And yeah, we should consider as a smoth transition.
 
ChaoticNeutralStuden said:
ΣFx : m*g(sin θ )- mg*uc =0
Those two forces act at different times and in different directions . It makes no sense to add or subtract them.
ChaoticNeutralStuden said:
I tried to type my working because I'm without my cellphone to take pictures of my notebook
Good! Images are supposed to be for textbook extracts and diagrams only.
 
  • Like
Likes   Reactions: ChaoticNeutralStuden
haruspex said:
Those two forces act at different times and in different directions . It makes no sense to add or subtract them.

Good! Images are supposed to be for textbook extracts and diagrams only.
So... I'm kinda lost now, how do I find the coefficient of friction using the Newton's law in this situation? I considered that a force of the same magnitude of mgsin θ was acting when the block reachs the beginning of the horizontal plane. I know i can reach the result by using kinemactic equations but I don't know if this is what the professor wants...
Edit :
If I considered :
ΣFx : - mg*uc = m *a
and a = ( g(sin θ ) ) , what is wrong with this?
 
Last edited:
Think about energy.
 

Similar threads

Replies
5
Views
1K
  • · Replies 7 ·
Replies
7
Views
1K
  • · Replies 4 ·
Replies
4
Views
2K
  • · Replies 12 ·
Replies
12
Views
1K
Replies
20
Views
3K
  • · Replies 42 ·
2
Replies
42
Views
6K
Replies
4
Views
1K
Replies
9
Views
2K
  • · Replies 3 ·
Replies
3
Views
2K
  • · Replies 19 ·
Replies
19
Views
3K