Verifying that all solutions to a system of eq. are found

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around finding all ordered pairs (a, b) that satisfy the system of equations ##2a + b = 12## and ##ab = 3##. Participants explore methods of verification, including algebraic and geometric reasoning, and discuss the implications of their deductions.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants propose using substitution to derive a quadratic equation and claim to find two solutions, asserting these are the only solutions based on the order of the quadratic.
  • Others argue that while the quadratic has two solutions, the reasoning must be carefully articulated to avoid errors in deduction, emphasizing the difference between necessary and sufficient conditions.
  • A later reply suggests a set-theoretic approach to demonstrate that the number of solutions corresponds to the cardinality of the sets involved, proposing a function that maps solutions of the quadratic to pairs satisfying the original equations.
  • Some participants express caution about generalizing the deduction process, highlighting that specific cases may not hold universally.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants generally agree that the quadratic derived from the system has two solutions, but there is disagreement on the validity of the reasoning used to assert this conclusion universally. The discussion remains unresolved regarding the general applicability of the deduction process.

Contextual Notes

Limitations include the need for careful articulation of deduction steps and the potential for errors in reasoning when generalizing from specific cases. The discussion highlights the importance of distinguishing between necessary and sufficient conditions in logical arguments.

Mr Davis 97
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I am given the following problem: Find all ordered pairs (a, b) such that ##2a + b = 12## and ##ab = 3##. Given this system of equations, I simply use substitution, and then solve the quadratic ##2a^2 - 12a + 3 = 0##. Solving this, I obtain two ordered pairs: ##\displaystyle (\frac{6 + \sqrt{30}}{2},~6 - \sqrt{30})## and ##\displaystyle (\frac{6 - \sqrt{30}}{2},~6 + \sqrt{30})##. These are all of the ordered pairs that I found. The problem asks to find all of the ordered pairs that satisfy the system. How can I be absolutely sure (through some kind of informal logic) that only two such ordered pairs exist, and these two are those ordered pairs?
 
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Mr Davis 97 said:
I am given the following problem: Find all ordered pairs (a, b) such that ##2a + b = 12## and ##ab = 3##. Given this system of equations, I simply use substitution, and then solve the quadratic ##2a^2 - 12a + 3 = 0##. Solving this, I obtain two ordered pairs: ##\displaystyle (\frac{6 + \sqrt{30}}{2},~6 - \sqrt{30})## and ##\displaystyle (\frac{6 - \sqrt{30}}{2},~6 + \sqrt{30})##. These are all of the ordered pairs that I found. The problem asks to find all of the ordered pairs that satisfy the system. How can I be absolutely sure (through some kind of informal logic) that only two such ordered pairs exist, and these two are those ordered pairs?
You can rule out ##ab=0##, so you may substitute ##b=\frac{3}{a}## and multiply the equation by ##a## without changing the solutions.
Now you see, that the equation is of order ##2##, i.e. there cannot be more than ##2## solutions.
To verify that your solutions are valid, simply insert them into the original equations and see whether they satisfy them.

You could also argue geometrically. A line (eq.1) intersects a hyperbola (eq.2) in at most ##2## points.
 
Because you have deduced it. Assume ##(a,b)## is a par of real numbers satisfying your equations. this implies your quadratic equations. The quadratic equation only has two solutions. so the initial assumption implies ##a## is either of the two values you found. but as fresh pointed out, ##a## uniquely determines ##b##. So indeed there can only be two solutions.
 
Lucas SV said:
Because you have deduced it.
Ok, in this small example it might be correct, if the calculation steps are carefully described.
It is not true in general, however. A deduction is ##x \in A ⇒ x \in B##. It does not guarantee ##x \in B ⇒ x \in A##.
Therefore all deduction steps will have to be equivalence relations. Your wording "because you deduced it" often leads to errors.
There is a fundamental difference between a necessary condition and a sufficient condition!
 
fresh_42 said:
Ok, in this small example it might be correct, if the calculation steps are carefully described.
It is not true in general, however. A deduction is ##x \in A ⇒ x \in B##. It does not guarantee ##x \in B ⇒ x \in A##.
Therefore all deduction steps will have to be equivalence relations. Your wording "because you deduced it" often leads to errors.
There is a fundamental difference between a necessary condition and a sufficient condition!
Yes this is all true, that is why I put an explanation later, although maybe i didn't make myself clear that i was filling the steps. If you want a set theoretic proof, you can take ##A'## be the solutions of the quadratic equation and ##A## to be pairs of real numbers which solve the first equation. Then show ##\phi:A'\rightarrow A##, ##\phi(a)=(a,3/a)## is a set isomorphism. So ##A## and ##A'## must have the same number of elements, or cardinality if you like. Since we know ##A'## has two elements, so has ##A##.

The details of the proof come in computing ##A'## and in showing that ##\phi## is a well defined function, and is both injective and surjective.
 
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