Dismiss Notice
Join Physics Forums Today!
The friendliest, high quality science and math community on the planet! Everyone who loves science is here!

News Voter disenfranchisement - in 2014?

  1. Sep 26, 2014 #1

    Astronuc

    User Avatar
    Staff Emeritus
    Science Advisor

  2. jcsd
  3. Sep 26, 2014 #2

    jedishrfu

    Staff: Mentor

    Wait for the future when they'll say you need a facebook page and to get it you'll need a drivers license or valid passport so facebook knows who you are.
     
  4. Sep 27, 2014 #3

    mfb

    User Avatar
    2017 Award

    Staff: Mentor

    Sorry, but that is a valid point. How do you distinguish between illegal immigrants and US citizens without any official documents or registration?

    Here in Germany, as an adult you have to have either ID or passport. If you lose ID and/or passport and your birth certificate at the same time, your home town still has a database entry about you, and if you come with witnesses that you are the corresponding person to this entry you can get new documents, but it is still a tricky procedure.
     
  5. Sep 27, 2014 #4

    mheslep

    User Avatar
    Gold Member

    ... that some simple id rules have not been put in place before in a country this size with such high physical mobility. Many other countries have them.

    http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/scrip...l=000&invol=07-21&friend=public#FNopinion1.10

    Anecdote for anecdote:
    http://www.electionintegritywatch.com/be-informed/news-stories/ [Broken]
     
    Last edited by a moderator: May 7, 2017
  6. Sep 27, 2014 #5

    Astronuc

    User Avatar
    Staff Emeritus
    Science Advisor

    While I agree with the comments made, and I've had the experience in presenting a 'government-issued photo ID' in entering the secured area at an airport, in various Federal buildings and other secure or regulated areas, and cashing a check, I reflect on the minority of cases like that of Ruthelle Frank.

    It used to be that one's signature was sufficient - probably about 40 or so years ago.

    I was wondering why not err on the side of protecting the right to vote. In the case of Ms. Frank, ostensibly there is a record of her residence and voting record. Besides, how many 85-year old illegal aliens show up to obtain a mandatory photo-ID?
     
  7. Sep 27, 2014 #6
    I've got a feeling that's a cultural stuff. It's some kind of irony that GOP here actually tries to enforce rules that are quite normal in the EU (In my country I vote with passport, to express my opinion about quality of governance).

    One simple rule - if whole legitimacy of gov is based on being the rightful heir, than you must have paranoiac procedures to guarantee that the queen did not have an affair and the new born baby was not replaced by midwives. If you have democracy, you must very carefully count the votes, as if it they were something important.

    Just to provide unquestionable transition of power and to silent all conspiracy theorist.
     
  8. Sep 27, 2014 #7

    SteamKing

    User Avatar
    Staff Emeritus
    Science Advisor
    Homework Helper

    Whoever said dealing with the government was going to be easy, whether you're 100 years old or 25 years old?

    While I sympathize with Mrs. Frank, a check of the Wisconsin state Dept. of Health Services, which keeps track of vital records for the state, shows that you can request that a birth certificate search be made. The non-refundable fee of $20 for the search includes furnishing a copy of the BC to the applicant if one is found and additional copies can be furnished at $3/copy, so IDK where this $200 figure for a BC search comes from.

    http://www.dhs.wisconsin.gov/vitalrecords/birth.htm

    Yes, there is a form which must be filled out and submitted, but Mrs. Frank has a daughter to help her. When my elderly father was alive and had to fill out lengthy forms, I was glad to be able to assist him. If one doesn't want to go thru the hassle of getting a certified copy of the BC, Wisconsin also permits an applicant for an ID to furnish two other forms of identification: these include a current health insurance card, a utility bill, or a current bank statement.

    I'm sure that Mrs. Frank is a recipient of SS and Medicare, so that's one form of ID. Since the article states she has lived at the same address for 85 years, there must be a utility bill of some sort. When the monthly SS check comes nowadays, the SSA is always urging recipients to sign-up for direct deposit, to prevent theft of the checks, so there may be a bank account in Mrs. Frank's name.

    I always take what Bill Moyers has to say with a grain of salt. He is a long-time Democratic party activist, going back to at least his days working in LBJ's administration.
     
  9. Sep 27, 2014 #8
  10. Sep 27, 2014 #9

    russ_watters

    User Avatar

    Staff: Mentor

    Indeed, in today's world, to not have ID is mind-boggling.....that's what you meant, right? ;)
    I went to a bar the other night and was insulted when I was asked for an ID. I'm 38 and don't look 21. Don't they trust mey? They said they have to card everyone. How can that be when I can vote without showing an ID? Something far more important is far less secure. Seems contradictory, doesn't it? Meh -- I had my ID in my pocket, so I declined to sue....after all, I wanted a beer now!
    Last time I voted, a signature was all I needed.
     
    Last edited: Sep 27, 2014
  11. Sep 27, 2014 #10

    russ_watters

    User Avatar

    Staff: Mentor

    Why is that an insult? The DMV has the capability of verifying ID, taking pictures and printing out ID cards. Seems like a logical place to go. Where would you have people go to get a government issued ID?
     
  12. Sep 28, 2014 #11
    The DMV typically is also so jokingly noted for their inefficiency that they are frequently brought up by comedians. In this case it isn't funny. The people in the OP had not been there in years and had little or no access to them.

    On the other hand these same people have been voting for years, and most of them at the same place. Older people also have either a Medicare or Medicaid card with the date of issue. Only a group who would perceive a significant number of the health cards held by older people to be fake would raise such a stink. Come to think of it this is just another insult to the elderly.

    Links to each of the above are in the link below.

    http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs...-ruling-proving-voter-fraud-is-mostly-a-myth/
     
  13. Sep 29, 2014 #12

    russ_watters

    User Avatar

    Staff: Mentor

    Yes, government-run offices are often terribly inefficient. So what? Again: How is that an insult? And what is your alternative?
    "Access"? Is that what you really meant to say? Clearly, they did have "access", since they went there and didn't say they had any trouble getting there.
    I would be in favor of making those cards photo-IDs if it makes things easier. Sound good to you?
    Huh? They aren't being asked to show those cards, so you're just making all of that up. But as above: if you are suggesting making that a photo ID so they can show it at a voting place, I'd be in favor of it.
    "Mostly"? So to put it another way: votor fraud happens.
     
  14. Sep 29, 2014 #13
    It is an insult because these people have voted for many years. many of them were voting before some forum members were even born. The Medicare and Medicaid cards with a picture ID would be a great alternative.

    Access was a poor choice of words only because it doesn't apply to ALL older people. Of course some can get there, the ones in the link did, but someone has to take them there. Not everyone has that someone, so obviously there is no access for them. Not everyone lives close to a DMV. Older handicapped and disabled people are especially burdened.

    It looks like this issue may go to court in Wisconsin.

    http://host.madison.com/news/local/writers/jessie-opoien/brief-filed-in-wisconsin-voter-id-case-points-out-limited/article_45c2d51e-4b67-5a50-8b2f-bd24763450e1.html [Broken]

    That sounds great to me !!

    Why aren't they asking for the forms of government ID that most older people have in hand? Because they aren't a photo ID? Why aren't they a photo ID? Could it be because this is the type of red tape issue that is usually against Republican ideology?..Sorry I am getting off topic. OK OK I confess that was intentional. <(@^@)>

    I agree that getting a photo ID on Medicare and Medicaid cards would be the answer to several problems. Many medical labs will not do the tests ordered by a doctor unless the patient shows a photo ID along with their government insurance cards. I know that from personal experience.

    [/QUOTE"]Mostly"? So to put it another way: votor fraud happens.[/QUOTE]

    It has been proven to be very rare. Are the new steps required to get a voter ID really necessary for the elderly? Disenfranchisement for the elderly is the whole point of the OP.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: May 7, 2017
  15. Sep 29, 2014 #14

    SteamKing

    User Avatar
    Staff Emeritus
    Science Advisor
    Homework Helper

  16. Sep 29, 2014 #15
    http://www.nhregister.com/governmen...ed-on-19-voting-fraud-charges?fb_locale=id_ID

    That is an interesting article about one state politician and voter fraud, albeit it goes on to get a bit tacky.

    So does the mud slinging start now? OK this republican has 13 felony voter fraud charges.

    http://www.politicususa.com/2014/06...-supporter-charged-13-felonies-wisconsin.html

    I doubt if either of these [fruitcakes) people were disenfranchised elderly Americans.

    I see a big problem as being in the quote below:

    http://www.economist.com/blogs/democracyinamerica/2014/01/voter-id-laws

    We most likely all agree that there is noting wrong with requiring proper voter identification. It does have to be done without affecting the elderly, the fox can not be in charge of the hen house, and no one should be disenfranchised.

    What we have so far is everything from sensible to totally ridiculous. There are new voter laws being struck down by the courts only to be appealed Ad nauseam.

    Below is a link to the various state voting laws:

    http://ballotpedia.org/State_by_State_Voter_ID_Laws
     
  17. Sep 29, 2014 #16

    SteamKing

    User Avatar
    Staff Emeritus
    Science Advisor
    Homework Helper

    That's the problem with voter fraud (at least in the US): Voter fraud is real if the other party does it; it's a myth if your own party gets caught.
     
  18. Sep 29, 2014 #17
    Voting should be free and convenient. If it requires an ID, the ID should be 100% free and easily accessible.

    Citizens have a right to vote and a right to a fair election that isn't impacted by fraud. If elected officials pass laws that are negligent in protecting those two rights, I will vote them out, regardless of their party affiliation.
     
  19. Sep 29, 2014 #18
    Ok so I have stayed on topic about as long as I can stand it.

    Even if the Identity of individual voters could be scrutinized to the point where no fraud could ever exist, we still have to deal with electronic machines that many people, myself included , do not trust because they are too easy to rig. To make things worse the separate machines that actually count the votes can also be rigged.

    Below is a good article if you want to read ten pages (short) on the history of election fraud. Most of the article focuses on more recent elections and points the finger at the folks on the right to the extent of calling machine fraud "red shift". It really digs deep.

    http://harpers.org/archive/2012/11/how-to-rig-an-election/

    Why did I always think that Harpers was about women's issues??
     
  20. Sep 30, 2014 #19

    mheslep

    User Avatar
    Gold Member

    Last edited by a moderator: May 7, 2017
  21. Sep 30, 2014 #20

    mheslep

    User Avatar
    Gold Member

  22. Oct 1, 2014 #21
    Same operates in other countries. In my country (Poland), nationalistic leaning voters trained thousands of people to monitor voting. When they failed to find anything except usual mess they claimed that it was because some serves located in Russia were used for counting votes.

    May I behave like annoying foreigner, who gives a theoretically reasonably sounding suggestion which might be hard from political reasons? Would it be a problem to issue on federal level all citizens who don't have a driving licence an ID card? Not even do it for free, but make a free photo and be so nice to give $5 to each person who takes it and demand local gov to honour those cards? (and start to phase out other gov issued cards)
     
  23. Oct 1, 2014 #22

    SteamKing

    User Avatar
    Staff Emeritus
    Science Advisor
    Homework Helper

    Up until a couple of years ago, I was able to visit my doctor's office without having to produce ID. Can't do that anymore. IDK if it's because of insurance fraud or what, but if you don't have some kind of picture ID, you're going to find a lot of trouble getting to do other things than casting a ballot.
     
  24. Oct 2, 2014 #23

    BobG

    User Avatar
    Science Advisor
    Homework Helper

    How do they intend to eliminate voter fraud for absentee ballots?

    Voting by mail is becoming so popular that many voters vote by mail, even if they don't plan to be absent on election day (who wants to stand in line at polling centers). Some elections in off years are entirely by mail ballot, as it's cheaper than opening polling places in years with such a small turnout.

    There's a trade off between election security and convenience. Usually, voters want just enough security not to inconvenience them. If it inconveniences voters from the opposite party without inconveniencing them personally, it's even better.
     
  25. Oct 2, 2014 #24

    SteamKing

    User Avatar
    Staff Emeritus
    Science Advisor
    Homework Helper

    You are still required to submit a copy of your photo ID along with the completed absentee ballot in some places. Also, the application to vote absentee requires that the applicant give full details of their name, address, and regular place of voting. If you, or someone else, shows up at your regular polling place wanting to vote, and the name they give matches someone who received an absentee ballot, you've got yourself a case of voter fraud. You're not supposed to be able to grab a bunch of blank absentee ballots and stuff the ballot box with them.
     
  26. Oct 3, 2014 #25
    The photo ID for medical care issue started a few years ago. I do know that Illegals were using the Medicaid cards of relatives to receive medical care here in AZ.

    The clinic below claims it is to make sure the right patient gets the right treatment.

    http://www.scvmc.org/patients/prepare/Pages/patientid.aspx

    This was discussed earlier in the thread. Why isn't there a picture on a person's insurance or government issued health care card? With the cost of a health care policy it seems to me the insurance companies could afford to supply a picture on the ID card.

    With inexpensive equipment available it is certainly easy to do, then again it would be easy for scammers and fraudulent card sellers to do.

    DMV employees in a number of states have been caught selling documents to illegals.

    http://community.aarp.org/t5/Politi...ployees-Arrested-for-Selling-Fake/td-p/782904
     
Share this great discussion with others via Reddit, Google+, Twitter, or Facebook