News Was the FBI Agent Indicted in the Oregon Standoff Case?

[jim hardy]

errorism is a catch all phrase that allows the government to do whatever it wants with impunity anyway. So it won't be long before anyone who speaks out against is a "terrorist."

people will have to learn about 42US1983 and 18USC242 .

 

[nsaspook]

Your definition would make a simple non terror criminal of, for instance, the Ft Hood mass killer, Hasan.

He was tried under the UCMJ. The Department of Defense classifies the case as one of workplace violence.

 

[StatGuy2000]

There have been town meetings held over the years on land issues involving the Hammonds, heavily attended, and the outcome ignored by the BLM per the congressional rep. There have been complaints made to their congressional representative going back to the 90s.

My reply to you is "so what?" I will simply quote russ on this: "there is no criteria for where there's been "enough" airing of the grievance through normal/legal channels and thereby illegal actions become warranted/acceptable."

 

[mheslep]

My reply to you is "so what?" ...

So stop suggesting there has not already been years of town meetings and traditional grievance airing:

think it would be sensible to have an extensive process of consultation (e.g. town hall meetings) to address the proposal

 

[StatGuy2000]

So stop suggesting there has not already been years of town meetings and traditional grievance airing:

mheslep, I did not suggest that there wasn't any consultation, only that as a general principle, if the federal government intends to make changes to laws that affect a large number of people, then consultation is generally advisable (although not required).

My point still stands: just because there have been town meetings and traditional grievance airing does not justify people taking up weapons and illegally taking control of property. As I've said before, people who do this are thugs and criminals (and quite possibly terrorists).

Perhaps I'm mistaken, but it sounds to me like you are sympathetic to these people and their actions.

 

[p1l0t]

If peaceful protest was effective it would probably be illegal. I'm not saying I agree with what they are doing or why, but it's a fair point.

 

[russ_watters]

I wish the reality of "combatant" today was that simple.

By non-combatant here I was thinking mainly about law enforcement like the sheriff while in his role as mediator.

For your specific query, it is simple: police are noncombatants, period.

Charge the group with treason/insurgency/revolt if they do something really stupid in the future but so far it's a bit of stretch to even call it that.

When this started I was happy with the initial hands off response, but now in my opinion it is too hands off. If this were an "Occupy" protest, they'd be dragged out by their collars. At the very least, they should not be allowed to come and go and resupply.

 

[russ_watters]

So stop suggesting there has not already been years of town meetings and traditional grievance airing:

Astronuc took your bait, but that does not validate the line of discussion. Astronaut did not say and I seriously doubt he believes they never took any of the normal/legal grievance paths. You pinned that on him and he bit.

 

[russ_watters]

He was tried under the UCMJ. The Department of Defense classifies the case as one of workplace violence.

The UCMJ is not equipped to deal with a terrorism charge, but Hassan was, in fact, on the FBI radar as a potential terrorist prior to the attack. There have been mixed messages on its classification since, but that's largely political. My understanding also is that civilian courts could attempt their own charges if they feel like it.

The attack was essentially the same as last year's San Bernardino shooting, which is being treated as terrorism. The only relevance the "workplace" holds in both cases is that the perpetrators chose targets and a battlefield they were familiar with.

 

[StatGuy2000]

The UCMJ is not equipped to deal with a terrorism charge, but Hassan was, in fact, on the FBI radar as a potential terrorist prior to the attack. There have been mixed messages on its classification since, but that's largely political. My understanding also is that civilian courts could attempt their own charges if they feel like it.

The attack was essentially the same as last year's San Bernardino shooting, which is being treated as terrorism. The only relevance the "workplace" holds in both cases is that the perpetrators chose targets and a battlefield they were familiar with.

It's worth keeping in mind that a particular criminal can (and no doubt quite often have) multiple motives when committing a particular criminal act. Yes, Hasan's act (along with the San Bernardino shooters) were considered acts of terrorism, but that doesn't mean that workplace issues didn't influence their actions.

For example, there were reports that Syed Farook (one of the San Bernardino shooters) did not get along with his co-workers at the city's Department of Public Health, and this may have played into his and his wife's choice of where to attack. After all, terrorists in general commit the acts they do to make a public political statement, often in a grand style in locations of either (a) of strong symbolic importance, (b) of military importance, or (c) in areas where a tremendous # of casualties can be achieved and be known widely. An outdoor picnic in San Bernardino doesn't seem to meet any of those criteria, which leads me to speculate that the shooters may have intended to carry out their act in a different location (e.g. somewhere in LA, including Hollywood) but decided to go after the co-workers instead because he was ticked off at them.

Perhaps a similar dynamic may have taken place with Hasan in choosing to attack the military base where he was employed (granted, this is all speculation on my part).

 

[russ_watters]

I don't think either case qualifies as terrorism by the given definition (crime, violence, endangerment, coercion), but if you want to throw the term around Occupy is a closer fit. Firearms are not in the definition.

No specific weapons are in the definition -- the weapons and the threat to use them are how you know there is violent intent.

I'd still like to know why you think the Occupy-ers are a closer fit:

Yes, but that is not an apt description of Occupy. Yes there was ample peaceful camping out in tents and discussion about how to change the world. Dont mistake that for an absence of riots, arson, and assaults on police officers which also occured. You are dismissing a great deal of violence as somehow irrelevant or smiley face no-victim, which much of it was not...

You're casting a very wide net, which doesn't provide me a way to analyze specific actions, so I chose to analyze the general tone/intent of the movement and *guessing* about what specific actions you are referring to based on my recollection of the types of things that happened. If you want me to evaluate specific actions that you have in mind, please provide the specific examples. I can't dismiss an example that hasn't been provided.

You must certainly mean *violent* illegal actions are never warranted...

Yes, but there are also non-violent actions that are not warranted. But there is no need to get into such details, since what we are discussing is violent actions.

...the several suggestions here that there had not been any legitimate grievance airing at all.

Near as I can tell, those are words you put in peoples' mouths that nobody said.

 

[OmCheeto]

In response to Astro's question in the title; This land is whose land?
added to my

Oregon is a big state. Most here would say it's actually big enough to be two states.
...

comment. It appears that representative Greg Walden and I, think alike:

Lawmaker to pitch idea to join eastern parts of Oregon, Washington with Idaho [ref KATU, a Portland based TV news station]

The division on the map in the article is pretty much where I would have drawn the line.

Sensing where this was going, even before I read the above article:

Judge sends Oregon ranchers back to prison
7 Oct 2015
...the organization decided to circulate a “Save the Hammonds” petition that has been signed by about 2,400 people.

In all honesty, I was scratching my head as to why the Hammonds were going back to prison, when I first heard the story. I probably would have signed the petition myself.

I signed a, in a Rodney Kingish spirit^[1], "We the People" petition, on the 17th.

signatures required: 100,000

population of Harney country: 7,146 [US Census Bureau]

current counted signatures: 13,627 (they still haven't posted my vote...)

current signatures from Oregon: 3,793

current signatures from Portland, Oregon: 109
current signatures from Portland, Tennessee: 1​

not to difficult mathematical extrapolation of people supporting this from outside of Oregon: 9,834​

Anyways, the Oregon vs Portland numbers are interesting. 3793:109
given that "More than 46% of the state's population lives in ... the Portland metropolitan area." [wiki]

[op ed]
It's my guess that the Bundys have spoiled the show, by pissing in the pot, and now nobody wants to get near it.
[/op ed]

----------------------------
[1] Rodney King; "People, I just want to say, you know, can we all get along? Can we get along? Can we stop making it, making it horrible for the older people and the kids? … It’s just not right. It’s not right. It’s not, it’s not going to change anything. We’ll, we’ll get our justice … Please, we can get along here. We all can get along. I mean, we’re all stuck here for a while. Let’s try to work it out. Let’s try to beat it. Let’s try to beat it. Let’s try to work it out".

• King appealing for calm during the Los Angeles riots (May 1, 1992)

 

[nsaspook]

http://www.kptv.com/story/31006727/sheriff-two-arrests-crash-connected-to-criminals-occupying-wildlife-refuge?autostart=true

BURNS, OR (KPTV) -

The Harney County sheriff said the members of an armed group that have been occupying the Malheur National Wildlife Refuge for more than two weeks are considered by law enforcement to be criminals.
...
Sheriff David Ward said Tuesday additional law enforcement resources have been moved toward locations "to be poised to react to any situation that may occur."
...
Ward said the group had pledged to leave the refuge if the community asked them to do so, but "the Bundy group continues to break its repeated promises."

Ward said he personally met with Bundy on Jan. 7 and asked him and his group to leave, but Bundy stated they would not leave.

"From that point forward, the occupiers at the refuge have been considered by law enforcement (local, state and federal) to be criminals -- and they need to vacate the refuge," a sheriff's office statement said.

http://www.kgw.com/news/rallies-in-oregon-protest-armed-occupation-of-malheur-wildlife-refuge/18817545

 

[Astronuc]

Oregon standoff leader attends meeting, hears chants of 'go'
http://news.yahoo.com/oregon-standoff-leader-attends-meeting-hears-chants-065757067.html

Some of the several hundred community members spoke to Bundy directly. One woman thanked him for raising awareness around issues of public lands, but told him it's time to go home to his family.
. . . .
Harney County Judge Steve Grasty took the microphone over to where Bundy sat in the bleachers and told Bundy he'd drive him wherever he wanted to go, as far as Utah. He also offered to meet with him anytime.
. . . .
Harney County Sheriff Dave Ward reiterated in a statement before the meeting that law enforcement wants the armed group to vacate the refuge.

 

[StatGuy2000]

Oregon standoff leader attends meeting, hears chants of 'go'
http://news.yahoo.com/oregon-standoff-leader-attends-meeting-hears-chants-065757067.html

Wait a minute, is the news report stating that Ammon Bundy was allowed to leave the refuge to attend a meeting? Why hasn't local law enforcement or the FBI arrested him immediately on leaving the refuge? This is absurd! This man is a criminal who broke the law, and continues to break the law, and should face the consequences of his actions as any other citizen of the US.

 

[jim hardy]

Why hasn't local law enforcement or the FBI arrested him immediately on leaving the refuge?

They understand John Claggart.

 

[OmCheeto]

Wait a minute, is the news report stating that Ammon Bundy was allowed to leave the refuge to attend a meeting? Why hasn't local law enforcement or the FBI arrested him immediately on leaving the refuge? This is absurd! This man is a criminal who broke the law, and continues to break the law, and should face the consequences of his actions as any other citizen of the US.

[my guesses]
Historical:

They don't want another Waco Texas incident.
Once a Bundy gets arrested, the first shot will be fired.
Once the first shot gets fired, there will be dead people everywhere.​

Political:

Obama, although not up for re-election, is probably looking at this as "Looks like a last minute excuse to make me look like a gun hating, patriot bashing, meanie". Which will affect the elections this fall.​

[/my guesses]

You also have to remember, that although this current incident is only about 3 weeks old, the Bundys have 23 years of practice in this type of warfare, and are getting pretty good at it. They've had plenty of time to study:

"Global Guide to Martyrdom"

Step 1. Although you have guns, and have stated that you are willing to die for your cause, be sure and surround yourself with women and small children. When the bullets start flying, it's possible that you may not get your wish, but a dead baby is worth at least half of all votes for your side, as women will almost universally hate whoever makes the babies dead. [ref]​

Complicating factors:

1. Oregon is considered an “open carry” state, which means that it is generally legal for an adult to openly carry a firearm without a permit. [ref]
2. They've occupied a "Federal" piece of property, which kind of means that all of the citizens of the USofA own the property. Since the perps are all citizens, they kind of own it too. (I'm not saying this kind of reasoning will work in court, but I'm sure it's what they think)​

ps. The jokes are starting to get pretty brutal out here in Oregon. I think some of us may be running out of patience. [ref]

 

[OmCheeto]

...I think some of us may be running out of patience. [ref]

I think the governor has just run out of patience.

Gov. Brown slams federal response to armed occupation near Burns
20 January 2016
...
Brown said federal authorities have asked her and other state officials to limit public comments to avoid escalating the situation.
...
"The situation is absolutely intolerable and it must be resolved immediately," Brown said. "The very fabric of this community is being ripped apart."
...

Peter DeFazio, probably my favorite state rep, lost it last week:


Published on Jan 13, 2016

 

[Astronuc]

Why doesn't DeFazio talk to Greg Walden. Aren't they supposed to be working together for the state, i.e., the people?

 

[OmCheeto]

Why doesn't DeFazio talk to Greg Walden. Aren't they supposed to be working together for the state, i.e., the people?

They probably are. But given the political divide, they probably don't want to be seen associating with each other TOO much.
Western Oregon is very democrat, and eastern Oregon is very republican( CPVI* = R+10 ).
Though DeFazio's district is close to neutral: CPVI = D+2

A Portland TV station is currently running a poll: Is the Federal Government doing the right thing by taking no direct action against the Bundy militia occupying the Malheur Wildlife Refuge?
Totals votes: 454 (as of 11 pm pst)
Yes: 25%
No: 72%
I don't know: 3%
[ref]

Although I'd like them to be gone as much as anyone, I voted yes.----------------
*CPVI: Cook Partisan Voting Index [wiki] (I don't think I've ever heard of it before today.)
My simplified interpretation: R+10 means the region will vote 10 percentage points more republican than the USA as a whole.

 

[Astronuc]

Armed occupation in Oregon beats on despite protests and governor’s condemnation
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...unterprotests-and-condemnation-from-governor/

The occupiers have said they will put their weapons to use only if the government attempts to remove them from the area.

Seems like a threat of violence to me.

 

[nsaspook]

The battle trumpet has been sounded.



I've changed my mind, why stop this honeypot for loons early.


These idiots are destroying property of the local coop.
http://www.harneyelectric.org/content/hec-service-territory-map

 

[mheslep]

Armed occupation in Oregon beats on despite protests and governor’s condemnation
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...unterprotests-and-condemnation-from-governor/

Seems like a threat of violence to me.

Yes, if that's what they (Refuge occupiers) in fact said. See video at 4 min.

https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=938588846217924&id=623383454405133&_rdr
My transcription
Q: What would you say to law enforcement agencies trying to kick you out?
A: Well, we pose no threat to anybody. There's no person who is physically harmed by what we are doing. This facility is owned by the people, and so if they come to do physical harm to us, it will be because of a building. I don't believe that warrants killing people...

 

[nsaspook]

http://www.opb.org/news/series/burn...ia-news-updates/negotiations-begin-bundy-fbi/

“I want to keep the dialogue going. We want to work together with you,” the negotiator said to Bundy.

The negotiator did not say his name, but other FBI agents present confirmed his role as a mediator.

Several other militants, including Ryan Payne and Brian Cavalier (who goes by the pseudonym “Fluffy Unicorn”), accompanied Bundy to the FBI base.

Three plainclothes FBI agents and a few sheriff’s deputies were also on the scene. In a conversational tone, the negotiator told Bundy that they are dealing with some significant issues that could take some time to work through.

“And take some other people that have some more experience to really get together on this and work together, to find a good resolution,” said the negotiator.

Hopefully an agreement for the Bundy group to leave the state will be hashed out soon.
http://www.opb.org/news/series/burn...itia-news-updates/hammond-blm-grazing-leases/

 

[Astronuc]

Yes, if that's what they (Refuge occupiers) in fact said. See video at 4 min.

That is an important caveat. I should have indicated, "if that is indeed what was said." The video is one 4 min video. Bundy has given many interviews and made many statements.

From the OPB link provided by nsaspook, "“Absolutely not,” militant leader Ammon Bundy said Thursday, “because the BLM does not have authority to be here. They do not have the authority to be managing the lands and resources inside the state.”"

Actually, the BLM does have authority as granted by Congress.

In https://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/USCODE-2010-title5/pdf/USCODE-2010-title5-app-reorganiz-other-dup7.pdf

SEC. 403. BUREAU OF LAND MANAGEMENT
(a) The functions of the General Land Office and of the Grazing Service in the Department of the Interior are hereby consolidated to form a new agency in the Department of the Interior to be known as the Bureau of Land Management.

which is found - 5 U.S.C. - REORGANIZATION PLAN NO. 3 OF 1946
https://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/granule/USCODE-2010-title5/USCODE-2010-title5-app-reorganiz-other-dup7
http://www.blm.gov/style/medialib/blm/national.Par.38689.File.dat/legislation.pdf
http://www.blm.gov/wo/st/en/info/regulations.html

https://www.doi.gov/whoweare/history
It wasn't until March 3, 1849, the last day of the 30th Congress, that a bill was passed to create the Department of the Interior to take charge of the Nation's internal affairs.

1849 Creation of the Home Department consolidating the General Land Office (Department of the Treasury), the Patent Office (Department of State), the Indian Affairs Office (War Department) and the military pension offices (War and Navy Departments). Subsequently, Interior functions expand to include the census, regulation of territorial governments, exploration of the western wilderness, and management of the D.C. jail and water system.

http://memory.loc.gov/cgi-bin/ampage?collId=llsl&fileName=002/llsl002.db&recNum=753 (April 25, 1812, An Act for the establishment of a General Land-Office in the Department of Treasury).

http://www.nps.gov/parkhistory/online_books/utley-mackintosh/interior1.htm
Congressional Globe, Senate, 30th Congress, 2nd Session, see pp. 674-680 of 700
https://memory.loc.gov/cgi-bin/ampage?collId=llcg&fileName=021/llcg021.db&recNum=40

https://memory.loc.gov/ll/llcg/021/0700/07200680.gif - first column and top of second column refers to the vote on the bill to establish the Department of the Interior. The discussion of the bill starts on page 674.

 

[mheslep]

The Governor of Oregon, Brown, has become involved. She's written a letter to Obama and Comey calling on them to end the occupation immediately.

I conveyed the harm that is being done to the citizens of Harney County by the occupation, and the necessity that this unlawful occupation end peacefully and without further delay from federal law enforcement. On behalf of all Oregonians, I appreciate your consideration of our desire to see this situation come to a close, and I thank you for your timely attention to this matter...

To what harm does Gov Brown refer?

While it is easy to assume that an occupation in such a remote location does not threaten public safety and does not harm any victims, that perception is far from accurate. ... What adds to the tensions felt by the community is the reality that multiple ‘supporters’ of these individuals have joined, staying in local motels in the City of Burns [30 miles away], and the criminals on the refuge are allowed to travel on and off the premises with little fear of law enforcement contact or interaction...

...militia members showed up at a basketball game on Saturday night. ... Children are being bullied in school based comments their parents are making in the community. So this is extremely distressful for the community.

By contrast, the Occupy Portland incident in 2011 drew up to an estimated 10,000 in Portland's Pioneer Courthouse Square from October 5, 2011 thru November 13, 2011, with no permit. An Occupy run shutdown of the Port of Portland followed on December 12. At the time, Portland Mayor Sam Adams stated,

...Representatives of the City of Portland and the Portland Police Bureau have outreached to those helping to organize Occupy Portland activities, and have encouraged the group to obtain a permit and/or share their planned march route and gathering spots. A permit allows the Police Bureau, TriMet, and other agencies to plan for a safe, peaceful, and lawful event. Occupy Portland has so far not obtained a permit; regardless, the Police Bureau will be working to facilitate a safe and orderly procession.

http://www.kptv.com/story/16008794/occupy-portland-given-deadline

 

[WWGD]

The Governor of Oregon, Brown, has become involved. She's written a letter to Obama and Comey calling on them to end the occupation immediately.
To what harm does Gov Brown refer?By contrast, the Occupy Portland incident in 2011 drew up to an estimated 10,000 in Portland's Pioneer Courthouse Square from October 5, 2011 thru November 13, 2011, with no permit. An Occupy run shutdown of the Port of Portland followed on December 12. At the time, Portland Mayor Sam Adams stated,
http://www.kptv.com/story/16008794/occupy-portland-given-deadline

What is your point in repeatedly contrasting with Occupy, other than venting out your obvious hatred of anyone left of you?

 

[mheslep]

What is your point in repeatedly contrasting with Occupy, other than venting out your obvious hatred of anyone left of you?

The point of contrasting with long term cases of trespass and community disruption is obvious. I don't hate. You?

 

[WWGD]

The point of contrasting with long term cases of trespass and community disruption is obvious. I don't hate. You?

No, I have argued against people both in the left and in the right. It seems you never miss a chance to trash anyone on the left, though. And it seems to be mostly you in this post who considers the point obvious; most I have read are treating it on its own terms.

 

[lisab]

No, I have argued against people both in the left and in the right. It seems you never miss a chance to trash anyone on the left, though. And it seems to be mostly you in this post who considers the point obvious; most I have read are treating it on its own terms.

Yeah, when the main argument against some action is, "Well they did it too!", it rarely leads to a satisfying discussion.