News Was the FBI Agent Indicted in the Oregon Standoff Case?

[Astronuc]

Oregon Public Broadcasting spoke with the holdouts and identified them as Fry, who is from Ohio, husband and wife Sean and Sandy Anderson of Idaho, and Jeff Banta of Nevada. Fry told the station that Sean Anderson faces a federal arrest warrant.

In one of the videos posted Thursday, the speaker — believed to be Fry — said: "We're asking, just drop the charges and we're willing to go. But if they're not willing to do that, we're all just willing to stay here and see what happens."

http://news.yahoo.com/3-more-arrested-bundy-urges-refuge-occupiers-leave-112737207.html

Of those remaining at the refuge:

Fry has a criminal record that includes convictions for drug possession and disorderly conduct. He has also posted videos on YouTube that appear to show him burning papers from a collection agency requesting that he pay overdue court debt.
. . . .
Public records for a Sean Anderson from Riggins show convictions for resisting an officer, drug possession, trespassing and several instances of disorderly conduct. Sandy Anderson does not appear to have a criminal record.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...-the-final-holdouts-of-the-oregon-occupation/

 

[Astronuc]

Ransacked Oregon refuge shows disdain toward America’s rangers
http://news.yahoo.com/ransacked-oregon-refuge-shows-disdain-toward-america-rangers-193649213.html

I would expect vandalism to be added to the list of charges.

The recent occupation seems to part of a disturbing trend.

“When the BLM tried to round up Bundy’s cattle for trespassing on federal land, some of Bundy’s crew took up sniper positions and threatened to shoot it out, so the BLM temporarily backed off to avoid bloodshed,” the High Country News wrote in its 2014 report, “Defuse the West.” “Right-wing talk shows instantly jumped to Bundy’s defense, lauding him as a hero fighting federal oppressors.”

But whether the number of assaults are going up or down, the intimidation and threat tactics alleged in the affidavits against the arrested Malheur occupiers fit what appears to be an intensifying pattern.

 

[jim hardy]

it makes one wonder if somebody is stirring the excitable segment.

While i am sympathetic to Hammond's situation , owning land that BLM covets,
Bundy seems a loose cannon . How did he get so far in arrears on his BLM grazing fees ? Hammond was paying his BLM fines...

1. U.S. Code › Title 10 › Subtitle A › Part I › Chapter 15 › § 332

Whenever the President considers that unlawful obstructions, combinations, or assemblages, or rebellion against the authority of the United States, make it impracticable to enforce the laws of the United States in any State by the ordinary course of judicial proceedings, he may call into Federal service such of the militia of any State, and use such of the armed forces, as he considers necessary to enforce those laws or to suppress the rebellion.

A squeaky wheel gets greased
a nail that sticks up gets hammered down
.

If you're going to start a row be darn sure you're in the right .

 

[OmCheeto]

...
While i am sympathetic to Hammond's situation , owning land that BLM covets,

This is something I'll have to research some more.
While on the surface, it looks like the BLM is just being mean, there may be more to the story.
From my recollection of American history, people out east were told to get out there[the west], stake your claim, and the land is yours. See: Land Rush
Now that may have been fine and dandy, back when my grandmother was born, as nobody really knew or cared about whether or not the land they were settling upon was suitable, in the long run, for what they were going to do with it: Ranching, farming, mining, whatever...
Anyways, we now know more than my great-great-grandparents, regarding land stewardship.

Bundy seems a loose cannon . How did he get so far in arrears on his BLM grazing fees ?

Bundys.
The current media Bundys, are the sons of Cliven Bundy.
That story, to me, sounds like a bunch of bullies, were let loose on the range, and nobody gave them the smackdown.
From http://archive.is/nvlzr#selection-183.0-191.48 , it appeared that the Bundy's cattle were simply let loose, and allowed free range, everywhere:

Crop destroyed by Bundy cattle on private land.
Mesquite Heritage Community Garden damaged by trespass cattle.
Mesquite golf course damaged by trespass cattle.
Residents of the communities of Bunkerville and Mesquite have complained about the impact of cattle on city facilities. ​

So it appears that it wasn't just the BLM that was somewhat pissy about cattle running around on public lands. From the above, private, community, and business interests were also affected.

Hammond was paying his BLM fines.
...

Fees. The fines were for damage due to arson.
And at $1.69 per month per head of cattle, I would call that nearly free. When was the last time you ate for a day for $1.69? http://www.blm.gov/wo/st/en/prog/grazing.html

If you're going to start a row be darn sure you're in the right .

One of my favorite quotes to come out of this, was made by the father of the sheriff, describing his son's philosophy:

“Do the right thing, then suffer the consequences.”
--- Dave Ward, Sheriff

 

[WWGD]

Hammond is known as a cook, in particular, he is known for his Hammond eggs.

 

[jim hardy]

This is something I'll have to research some more.

Good luck finding unbiased reporting.
It may be useful to go to sites on both fringes and check the references they cite
Conservative Treehouse
http://theconservativetreehouse.com...t-hammond-family-story-hidden/comment-page-1/

Democratic Underground
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10027499317

In electrical maintenance it is difficult to troubleshoot from somebody else's observations - they get colored by the observer's mindset.
One has to do his level best to take their observations sans their interpretations and draw one's own conclusions.
I try to do the same with the evening news. But I'm sort of like Candide , slower than most to figure things out.

old jim

 

[jim hardy]

ps I too thought $1.69 per cow-day a bargain.

 

[OmCheeto]

Good luck finding unbiased reporting.
It may be useful to go to sites on both fringes and check the references they cite
Conservative Treehouse
http://theconservativetreehouse.com...t-hammond-family-story-hidden/comment-page-1/

I actually started researching the claims in the above article. (Or one of it's incarnations)
It was my conclusion that the author was really into creative writing.

From the article; "The request/expectation was that Sheriff Ward would be willing to stop federal agents from arresting “Dwight Lincoln Hammond, Jr., 73, and his son, Steven Dwight Hammond, 46. Unfortunately the exact opposite happened".​

In fact, the Hammonds willingly turned themselves into the authorities.

"The sheriff of this small community has a short, unmistakable message for the militants occupying a complex of federal buildings southeast of town. 'Go home'”.​

Now that was true. But it's also true that the Hammonds told the militants to go home. In fact, nearly everyone in Oregon was telling them to "Go home".

The last thing this article asks is, was the "David Ward" listed as a BLM employee, on page 5 of their very official looking court room document, our sheriff David Ward.

Now I'm not saying such a court room document doesn't exit, but this one looks like it was typed up by theconservativetreehouse.com themselves.

Page 1
Cutting this case down through the muscle to the shank and bone, the prosecution contends the defendants’ who were leasing their neighbors’ property to graze cattle, never had their neighbors’ permission to also burn it.​

Further evidence that the theconservativetreehouse.com courtroomish looking document is a fabrication:

UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT
DISTRICT OF OREGON
EUGENE DIVISION
Trial Date: June 12, 2012 @ 9:00 AM​

The trial was held in a town called Pendleton, about 240 miles away. [ref]

I researched a couple of other allegations from another of their web pages:

32 out of 53 permits were revoked and many ranchers were forced to leave​

I have yet to see a single incidence of a displaced rancher confirming this story.

Thirty-one ranches on the Silvies plains were flooded. Homes, corrals, barns and graze-land were washed a way and destroyed. ​

Although flooding is not uncommon in Oregon, I could find no evidence of homes or barns being washed away, in the described region.

So, in conclusion, it is my humble opinion, that the Conservative Treehouse, is like wikipedia from hell.

Democratic Underground
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10027499317

Lots of flotsam and jetsam to wade through.
I liked a couple of posts:

Arananthi (1 post)
11. I started writing this long debunk for LiberalAmerica.org, but it got to be too long and I gave up.
...​

bhikkhu (9,746 posts)
37. A couple of additional things
...​

Both seem to corroborate what I've discovered about the region.

In electrical maintenance it is difficult to troubleshoot from somebody else's observations - they get colored by the observer's mindset.
One has to do his level best to take their observations sans their interpretations and draw one's own conclusions.
I try to do the same with the evening news. But I'm sort of like Candide , slower than most to figure things out.

old jim

I don't know anyone named Candide, so I'll just take your word for it, and just assume that you're about as slow as I am.

ps. It's probably a good thing I didn't read the following until a few days ago, as, well, I might have bought a gun, and gone on a road trip...

The situation escalated. The tires were slashed on Ward’s wife's car. Ward arranged a safe house for her where she still remains. His parents were followed by militants as they left their granddaughter’s Christmas play. The people of Burns, angry at the occupiers, were becoming miffed with Ward’s perceived inaction.

Jim Ward, 78, said his son wanted to find a way to end the conflict without bloodshed, focusing on a mantra he has always preached: “Do the right thing. Then suffer the consequences.”

The sheriff’s mother, Linda Ward, 74, said her son confided in her that he did all he could. It wasn’t enough. [ref]​

Really? I mean, really?

 

[OmCheeto]

So, "This land is whose land"?



"10,228 miles²"
"bigger than 9 states, in this nation"
"there's about 7400-7500 people that live there"

hmmmm...

States and      square     actual       interpolated
Harney County   miles      population   population
                 
Maryland        9,774      6,006,401    7,119
Vermont         9,250        626,042    6,738
New Hampshire   8,968      1,330,608    6,532
Massachusetts   7,840      6,794,422    5,711
New Jersey      7,417      8,958,013    5,402
Hawaii          6,423      1,431,603    4,678
Connecticut     4,845      3,590,886    3,529
Delaware        1,954        945,934    1,423
Rhode Island    1,045      1,056,298      761
                 
Harney County  10,228          7,450    7,450

I suppose, this is one reason it's hard for many people to imagine, what's been going on.

 

[nsaspook]

http://www.opb.org/news/series/burn...locking-lines-of-communication-militants-say/

David Fry, one of the four remaining militants, said the FBI made it so the occupiers can’t make outgoing calls on their cellphones. Fry said he can receive incoming calls, but that the other three in the refuge appear unable to receive calls on their cellphones. The militants also said they’ve lost access to the internet.

 

[p1l0t]

http://www.opb.org/news/series/burn...locking-lines-of-communication-militants-say/

No Internet!? How boring.

 

[Astronuc]

While I am sympathetic to Hammond's situation , owning land that BLM covets,
Bundy seems a loose cannon . How did he get so far in arrears on his BLM grazing fees ? Hammond was paying his BLM fines...

It's not clear to me that the BLM covets the Hammond's land. Their property is adjacent to land managed by BLM, which is apparently down by Steens Mountain.
http://www.blm.gov/or/districts/burns/recreation/steens-mtn.php

Nice place to go hiking.

U.S. Code › Title 10 › Subtitle A › Part I › Chapter 15 › § 332

That seems to back to July 29, 1861 in the beginning of the Civil War, which officially began on April 12, 1861 with the bombardment of Fort Sumter.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Civil_War#Battle_of_Fort_Sumter
From the 37th Congress - http://uscode.house.gov/statviewer.htm?volume=12&page=281 - see Chapter XXV.Meanwhile - Burns, Ore., trying to get back to normal
http://news.yahoo.com/burns-ore-getting-back-normal-183704946.html

In rural Oregon (and bascially other western states)wariness of extremists and government overreach
http://www.csmonitor.com/USA/Societ...f-extremists-and-federal-government-overreach

Some think grass is grass. In reality, some grass is good, and some grass is not so good. There is certainly a need to manage land appropriately (i.e., good stewardship), and that requires education and knowledge about the land and what is good or not. I think others put in the effort to learn, but others do not.

I certainly agree with statements that the Federal government needs give more heed or consideration to the needs of locals who are directly impacted by federal policy and practice.In the western states, there is a constant battle against invasive plant (and fish) species. One case is cheatgrass. One of the issues:

Forage quality and digestibility also affect cheatgrass use by livestock. The period that
cheatgrass is palatable and nutritious for herbivore consumption is considerably shorter than for most native herbaceous plants (Klemmedson and Smith 1964). Forage quality declines as cheatgrass matures, therefore early spring to early summer grazing provides the greatest nutritional benefits to livestock (Murray and others 1978).

http://www.icbemp.gov/science/pellant.pdf

 

[jim hardy]

it's hard to get backpast the current hype surrounding the controversy now

here's a 1994 newspaper article
i don't know whether "The Oregonian" is impartial

https://assets.documentcloud.org/documents/1630026/societyadvo00004.pdf

that's from 1994 before the recent hooplah and hyperbole

FWS says they're not trying to acquire Hammond's property per the article (it wasn't behind a paywall last night)

 

[Astronuc]

Oregon standoff leader strikes defiant tone from behind bars
http://news.yahoo.com/hearing-standoff-leader-tries-jail-083640621.html

PORTLAND, Ore. (AP) — The jailed leader of an armed group that took over an Oregon wildlife preserve struck a defiant tone Tuesday while again urging four holdouts to leave, saying local residents should control the federally owned property and U.S. officials do not belong there.

Ammon Bundy said the FBI and Oregon State Police surrounding Malheur National Wildlife Refuge are leading an "armed occupation," words typically reserved for the ranchers and others that launched the standoff on Jan. 2. He said the refuge "belongs to the people," according to a statement read by his attorney.

 

[OmCheeto]

it's hard to get backpast the current hype surrounding the controversy now

here's a 1994 newspaper article
i don't know whether "The Oregonian" is impartial

As the states largest newspaper, I'd call them very impartial.
Now the author of each article, on the other hand...
The author of this 22 year old paper seems fairly even handed.

In 2012, this same author wrote;

"...The men were convicted of arson in the 2001 Hardie-Hammond Fire near Steens Mountain, where BLM leased grazing rights to them. Steven Hammond also was convicted of arson in the 2006 Krumbo Butte Fire on the Malheur National Wildlife Refuge and Steens Mountain.

They were acquitted and the government dismissed allegations that they conspired and set two other wildfires in 2006. ..." [ref]​

So this will be the 4th(?) time the Hammonds have been charged with something or other, over the last 22 years.

His 1994 article which you posted, lists some interesting characters, and how far they traveled to get involved.
Notice that these 3 are all from out of state:

Charles S. Cushman, property rights & pro-grazing activist, of Battleground WA
Executive director of the National Inholders Assn and Multiple-Use Alliance
distance: 290 miles

Edward L. Presley, professional property rights activist, of Las Vegas NV
Director of the County Alliance to Restore Economy and Environment
distance: 690 miles

Mark Pollot, atty, of Boise ID
Represents the Stewards of the Range Constitutional Law Center in Boise
distance: 190 miles​

Cushman's statement; "If the Hammonds lose, you lose", I think explains why the Hammonds had so much local support.

Another article written about the same time, has a somewhat different tone:

Ranchers arrested at wildlife refuge
Kathie Durbin Oct. 3, 1994

BURNS, Ore. - The arrest of Dwight Hammond, a hot-tempered eastern Oregon cattle rancher, has galvanized a nasty campaign of retribution against the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service.
...
On the day the fence was to be built, the crew and refuge officials arrived to find Hammond had parked his Caterpillar scraper squarely on the boundary line and disabled it, removing the battery and draining fuel lines. When a tow truck arrived to move it, Dwight Hammond showed up, leaped to the controls of the scraper and hit a lever that lowered the bucket, narrowly missing another special agent. Meanwhile, said Kisler, Steve Hammond shouted obscenities at federal officials. Neither Hammond resisted arrest.​

FWS says they're not trying to acquire Hammond's property per the article (it wasn't behind a paywall last night)

I've saved a copy locally, just in case it does.

I looked up the locals named in the article, to see if they had comments about this new situation.
Nothing.

 

[OmCheeto]

Interesting connections

Graphic: The hidden connections of the Sagebrush Insurgency
Where a sprawling network of actors find common cause.
Jonathan Thompson and Brooke Warren Feb. 2, 2016
...
Whereas the Sagebrush Rebellion of old was driven largely by pragmatic, grassroots concerns, today’s version is purely ideological — a nationwide confluence of right-wing and libertarian extremists. Many of them have little interest in grazing allotments, mining laws or the Wilderness Act.
...

That graphic at the bottom may explain why no one can figure this out.

Oh, what a tangled web we weave
When first we practise to deceive!
---Walter Scott​

 

[Astronuc]

Four holdout occupiers at Oregon wildlife refuge are indicted
http://news.yahoo.com/security-beefed-national-wildlife-refuges-3-states-040241397.html

PORTLAND, Ore. (AP) — The four remaining occupiers at an Oregon wildlife refuge are facing charges, according to court documents released Thursday that say more than a dozen armed activists threatened violence against federal authorities and used social media to urge others to join them.

http://news.yahoo.com/four-protesters-still-occupying-oregon-wildlife-refuge-charged-174110792.html

The three-page indictment says the defendants brandished firearms and refused to leave the refuge, threatening violence against anyone who attempted to remove them. It also says they warned the local sheriff of "extreme civil unrest" if their demands were unmet, among other acts of intimidation.

Bundy claims that the land "Malheur Wildlife Refuge" belongs to the people. Well, it does, and it administered by the Federal government. I could go and visit the refuge anytime during normal hours, and probably arrange to camp overnight. However, I wouldn't want to visit while crazy people with guns occupy the place.

And while Bundy talks about the people owning the land, it's really about putting the land in private hands who then can exclude the public from the land.

 

[nsaspook]

I hope the FBI rescues the 'four idiots' soon so they can join up with friends.
.http://www.mcso.us/PAID/Home/Booking/1362475

http://www.oregonlive.com/oregon-standoff/2016/02/militia_group_backs_down_billb.html

A Facebook post of BJ Soper, a founding member of the Pacific Patriots Network, said the group was going to escort the holdouts from the refuge. But Soper learned that the occupiers said they were resigned to die and that attempts to remove them would be met by force.

Soper said he didn't want to put the volunteers in harm's way.

"This was a call to action not a call to arms," Soper wrote Thursday.
...
One of the billboards reads "Our heroes making Harney County proud" next to a picture of officers in front of the Harney County Sheriff's Office. The other billboard reads "We are Harney County We have our own voice."

 

[Astronuc]

Oregon refuge takeover sheds light on hard times for rural economy
http://www.seattletimes.com/busines...-sheds-light-on-hard-times-for-rural-economy/

It took the seizure of the Malheur National Wildlife Refuge by anti-government activists to get national media attention to this ailing corner of Oregon. But the economic story of ailing small towns in the Northwest has nothing to do with Ammon Bundy’s ideology.

It shouldn't take a crisis to address economic issues in the nation.

 

[nsaspook]

http://koin.com/2016/02/09/pete-santilli-free-speech-champion-or-loud-mouth/

In his 16-page memorandum calling for Santilli’s release from jail, Coan says Santilli wants to return to doing his Internet radio show from the Cincinnati apartment he shares with Deborah Jordan. Coan says Santilli was an “unconventional news-gatherer” who should be accorded the same First Amendment protections as “an employee of a mainstream television station.”

A federal judge rejected that idea during a Feb. 5 hearing, holding Santilli until his trial after prosecutors showed video clips of Santilli bragging about have a cache of guns and threatening to shoot law enforcement officers if any tried to break into his home.

 

[Astronuc]

One of the occupiers, David Fry, made a cheeky video about 'fortifying' the area. He basically explained their defense strategy, which included surrounding the area with cans and bottles that would make noise if someone steps on them. He claims that he and the others face charges for 'fortifying' the refuge. Of course, in actuality, they seem to dismiss the fact that they are committing illegal acts of trespassing, unauthorized use of federal property, resisting arrest, . . . , each of which is a criminal act.

The occupiers went beyond freedom of speech when they threatened other folks and took up arms against the government. They are entitled to due process and a fair trial; they are not entitled to threaten others or resist arrest.

Meanwhile - http://www.oregonlive.com/oregon-standoff/2016/02/refuge_occupier_calls_for_feds.html

Apparently -FBI moves in on last four occupiers at Oregon wildlife refuge
http://news.yahoo.com/fbi-moving-last-four-occupiers-oregon-wildlife-refuge-022716643.html

FBI says it has surrounded last occupiers at Oregon refuge
http://news.yahoo.com/fbi-says-surrounded-last-occupiers-oregon-refuge-023131322.html

Fry seems to be becoming increasingly irrational.

 

[nsaspook]

http://www.mcso.us/PAID/Home/Booking/1364036

http://www.kgw.com/news/local/eastern-oregon/cliven-bundy-booked-in-multnomah-county-jail/39806821

 

[OmCheeto]

And, the occupation is over.

 

[nsaspook]

Fry seems to be becoming increasingly irrational.

Sad.

http://www.kptv.com/story/31197774/remaining-refugees-expected-to-surrender-to-fbi

BURNS, OR (KPTV) -

After a 40 day confrontation, a sole remaining protester is all that is left occupying the Malheur National Wildlife Refuge near Burns after three others surrendered to the FBI Thursday morning.
...
The lone remaining protester, David Fry, has been stating on a live audio feed that he has declared war on the United States.

 

[nsaspook]

And, the occupation is over.

Finally...
https://www.fbi.gov/portland/press-...piers-at-the-malheur-national-wildlife-refuge
I hate to think of the mess they left behind but I like to think positive, the Bundy gang are behind bars.

 

[OmCheeto]

Finally...

Did you get a chance to listen to the live feed this morning?
David Fry, in between his Kool-aide moments, stated many great observations, of what is wrong with the world.
Which had me rooting for him, at the end.
I'm really glad he didn't shoot himself. (He said that he had a gun in his hand, pointed towards his head, at one point.)

[In my not-a-mental-healthcare-expert OPINION]
David, although somewhat off, seemed to be the only person in the entire fiasco, who wasn't 100% insane.
[/In my not-a-mental-healthcare-expert OPINION]

 

[nsaspook]

Did you get a chance to listen to the live feed this morning?

Only the part when he was asking everyone to say ‘Hallelujah’. I can agree with that.
http://videos.oregonlive.com/oregonian/2016/02/david_fry_walks_into_fbi_custo.html

 

[OmCheeto]

Only the part when he was asking everyone to say ‘Hallelujah’. I can agree with that.
http://videos.oregonlive.com/oregonian/2016/02/david_fry_walks_into_fbi_custo.html

That was kind of funny.
As far as I can tell from the 4 hours I listened to last night, and the 3 from this morning, David is an atheist.

Though, at one point this morning, he stated that he was a Jewish Messiah something or another.
I'm not sure if it was a joke or not.
But he struck me as very well versed in layman level theology.
That was one thing I liked about him, as I'm also an expert at layman level theology.

 

[Rx7man]

Being less than 300 miles from the epicenter, I've been following this a little bit.
Of Astro's introductory links, about the only one that isn't familiar to me is:
<snip>
New cows are free. They're called "baby cows", or "calves", if you want to get pedantic. Why are you buying cows?

They certainly aren't free, any animal you keep as a replacement is usually worth exactly what you'd have to pay to buy it.. You had to feed it's mother and father for a year, etc.. They certainly aren't free. a decent bull these days is between $5-10K

The plural, indicates that this is not some "mom and pop" endeavor. $200,000 is not a small sum, for most Americans.

$200,000 doesn't buy much these days, though it's still hard to earn.. pickup trucks are into the $60K range, and a lot of farm equipment is WAY above that... And yes, these are things "mom and pop" sized enterprises need.

Just because you're physically close to what's happening doesn't mean you understand many aspect of it.

 

[Astronuc]

Cliven Bundy Is Charged With Conspiracy And Extortion (dating back to 2014 and extending to the present)
http://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-...e-mounts-on-4-remaining-wildlife-refuge-occup

 

[OCR]

They certainly aren't free, any animal you keep as a replacement is usually worth exactly what you'd have to pay to buy it.. You had to feed it's mother and father for a year, etc.. They certainly aren't free. a decent bull these days is between $5-10K$200,000 doesn't buy much these days, though it's still hard to earn.. pickup trucks are into the $60K range, and a lot of farm equipment is WAY above that...

And yes, these are things "mom and pop" sized enterprises need.

Just because you're physically close to what's happening doesn't mean you understand many aspect of it.

Our "farming tractor ( 1987 )" ...

What we would "like to have" ...

http://www.tractordata.com/farm-tractors/006/7/1/6717-john-deere-8360r.html
http://www.tractordata.com/farm-tractors/007/0/9/7099-john-deere-9560r.html

They certainly aren't free, any animal you keep as a replacement is usually worth exactly what you'd have to pay to buy it...
A decent bull these days is between $5-10K...
$200,000 doesn't buy much these days...
Just because you're physically close to what's happening doesn't mean you understand many aspect of it.

​

 

[nsaspook]

http://videos.oregonlive.com/oregonian/2016/02/im_proud_of_this_community_say.html

At a press conference the afternoon of February 11, 2016, after the remaining four occupiers of the Malheur wildlife refuge had been taken into custody, Harney County Sheriff Dave Ward spoke. "I love this community and I am proud of every person in it," said Ward.

Sheriff Ward, thank you.

 

[nsaspook]

The final four.

Jail booking photos of Sandra Anderson, Sean Anderson, Jeff Banta and David Fry.

 

[Astronuc]

http://videos.oregonlive.com/oregonian/2016/02/im_proud_of_this_community_say.html

Sheriff Ward, thank you.

Indeed!

Harney County Sheriff Calls For Dialogue Following Oregon Occupation's End
http://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-...for-dialogue-following-oregon-occupations-end

Apologizing at times for being emotional, Ward said, "I'm proud of this community and I'm proud of my friends and neighbors. I'm proud of the way they stood up to this stuff."

"I've seen division in this community, division in friends and families," he said. "A house divided against itself cannot stand."

Ward called on residents to "get off Facebook" and sit down with each other over a cup of coffee to talk about their disagreements. He reiterated his love for both his community and the country.

 

[Rx7man]

Our "farming tractor ( 1987 )" ...

What we would "like to have" ...

http://www.tractordata.com/farm-tractors/006/7/1/6717-john-deere-8360r.html
http://www.tractordata.com/farm-tractors/007/0/9/7099-john-deere-9560r.html

You guys are lucky... My lineup is a 1956 Allis HD6 dozer, 1966 Ford County, a 1972 Massey 165 and Leyland 154, JD 350B bucket crawler, and the newest of the bunch is 1980 IH 684 we bought as a wreck, it was rolled down a 200' bank and broke in half when it hit a tree. Newest vehicle we have is my 1994 Dodge... Our (mini) combine is a 1930's Allis AC40 (4' swath)
I'm currently looking a IH 784 4x4 with a bucket.. that needs work

 

[Astronuc]

The Oregon occupation is over, but standoffs among nearby residents continue
http://www.latimes.com/nation/la-na-oregon-standoff-west-20160212-story.html

Cliven Bundy's Arrest Caps Years Of Calls For Government To Take Action
http://www.npr.org/2016/02/11/46645...-years-of-calls-for-government-to-take-action

Dispute Over Cattle Grazing Disrupts Patrols Of Federal Land
http://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-...cattle-grazing-blocks-patrols-of-federal-land

If no one is patrolling it, who's going to deter vandals? That's a question Moan and William Anderson, the former chairman of the local Moapa Band of Paiutes, who consider this desert sacred, are asking more and more as the dispute between Bundy and the government drags on.

The Nevada state director of the BLM, John Ruhs, defends the agency's decision to keep field staff away. He says there are still threats and intimidation tactics directed toward his employees there.

"When it comes to having employees on the ground doing things like monitoring or restoration work, it's just not getting done because of the safety concerns we have for our employees," Ruhs told NPR.

It would seem fair to return it to the Paiute, who could then properly manage the land.

 

[Rx7man]

It would seem fair to return it to the Paiute, who could then properly manage the land.

In other words leaving it unmanaged, or have hundreds (even thousands) of feral horses on it.. if they're anything like the natives around here.. over 1000's of acres there's not a blade of grass that gets to grow over an inch high, and the eternal trampling of the horses is causing erosion as well.

I'm not saying 'us white people' always manage things right either, it's just less of a pattern of neglect when it comes to grasslands and range.

 

[jim hardy]

The first humans arrived in the Bully Creek watershed about 13,000 years ago. The Northern Paiute tribe of Native Americans migrated to the region approximately 1,000 years ago. Whites first arrived in the in 1811 when fur traders from the Pacific Fur Company passed through. The Oregon Trail passed through the area in the 1840s, 50s, and 60s.[8]

We have to live in the world we're in now.

Looks like it might be good grazing land - west edge of American Bison range ?

If i ever rewrite "Oklahoma" i'll set it in Oregon..
"The environmentalist and the cowman should be friends..."


territory folk should stick together...

old jim

 

[mheslep]

...
http://www.npr.org/2016/02/11/46645...-years-of-calls-for-government-to-take-action
...
http://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-...cattle-grazing-blocks-patrols-of-federal-land
It would seem fair to return it to the Paiute, who could then properly manage the land.

And that proposal seems arbitrary. The Paiutes were not the original inhabitants, if original occupation is somehow a justification. Why not seize the Paiute reservation and "return it" to pre-Roosevelt ranchers? Why not seize the 400,000 sq ft NPR building in Washington, DC and return it to a pre-columbian state?

 

[lisab]

And that proposal seems arbitrary. The Paiutes were not the original inhabitants, if original occupation is somehow a justification. Why not seize the Paiute reservation and "return it" to pre-Roosevelt ranchers? Why not seize the 400,000 sq ft NPR building in Washington, DC and return it to a pre-columbian state?

I've always thought that trying to find "historical owners" of land is opening a can of worms. At some point we all have to agree on a starting point for when the rule of law applies. Yeah it's arbitrary, and sure there are going to be unsettled boundaries when we decide whenever the 'starting point' is. But it makes going forward so much clearer. It's a sad fact of life that things aren't always fair.

 

[Astronuc]

The Paiutes were not the original inhabitants, if original occupation is somehow a justification.

What is the evidence to support such a claim?

Why not seize the Paiute reservation and "return it" to pre-Roosevelt ranchers?

Which one?

On September 12, 1872, a presidential order by Ulysses S. Grant set aside the Malheur Indian Reservation in Eastern Oregon for the Northern Paiute. It was intended for "all the roving and straggling bands in Eastern and Southeastern Oregon, which can be induced to settle there." The goal was to reduce conflict between the Paiute, who were struggling to find enough food for survival, and the settlers, whose farms and ranches encroached on their territory.

Of course, the Paiutes were moved off the land because European-Americans wanted the land.

From the sources I read, the Paiutes and Shoshone were indigenous to what is now Nevada, Utah, and parts of Oregon and Idaho (the Northern Paiutes for at least 1000 years, but probably longer). Since some were nomadic, it's possible they mixed with other tribes in the area, e.g., Cayuse, Wallowas and others.

Early in US history, the territory west of the Mississippi was considered 'Indian Territory'.

In general terms, Jackson’s government succeeded. By the end of his presidency, he had signed into law almost seventy removal treaties, the result of which was to move nearly 50,000 eastern Indians to Indian Territory—defined as the region belonging to the United States west of the Mississippi River but excluding the states of Missouri and Iowa as well as the Territory of Arkansas—and open millions of acres of rich land east of the Mississippi to white settlers. Despite the vastness of the Indian Territory, the government intended that the Indians’ destination would be a more confined area—what later became eastern Oklahoma.

https://history.state.gov/milestones/1830-1860/indian-treaties

 

[OmCheeto]

I know I shouldn't admit it, but there appears to be a silver lining left over from the occupation.
Mostly for me I suppose, as I've started following a wide variety of groups and people, that I really never paid much attention to, and it's simply incredible the number of things that they are working on, that I can support.

I found out from the Northwest Treaty Tribes that they are trying to get wild salmon runs going again above the Grand Coulee and Chief Joseph dams. I'm 100% for that. [ref]
They also pointed out that; "The state of Washington should end its long, failed history of denying tribal, treaty-reserved fishing rights and halt its appeal of a federal court ruling requiring repair of hundreds of salmon-blocking culverts under state roads". That seems simple enough. [ref]

And from Washington Tribes, I discovered that: Colville Tribe releases 52 Nevada pronghorns on reservation: Feb 1, 2016
I thought that was very nice. I had just read a section from a book the previous day, about a Crow woman from about 100 years ago, and her story of the antelope. I wasn't aware of any antelope, so I googled it, and discovered that they had to be pronghorns.
I was going to make a joke that we should shoot all the horses and cattle, beings that they are non-indigenous, and make ranchers raise pronghorns, but then I found out that pronghorns are the second fastest land animals in the world. So I decided that was not a good idea.

Also, going through the tribal web sites, it doesn't appear that they want to go back to living in teepees and chasing buffalo around for a living. Even Pretty Shield admitted 100 years ago, that some things were better. But as I pointed out above, there are still things that need to be fixed.

I think I've added about 50 different twitter feeds over the last 40 days. One of them re-tweeted an announcement made yesterday, that Wyoming just voted down a bill involving transfer of federally controlled lands to the state.

Wyoming Wildlife Federation
2016.02.12.07:20pm
WY LEG NEWS! The fierce opposition to the public lands transfer bills paid off. The public land grab bills of 2016 were dead on arrival! The House of Representatives voted 52-7 against HB 126, the public lands access bill, and House leaders stopped hearing introductory bills just before HB 142, the transfer of public lands bill. WWF and your representatives heard from many of you about your strong opposition to these bills. This is what a democracy means! We the people care about our public lands and keeping them in public hands. Good job Wyoming!

- HB 142 - Transfer of federal lands. Proposes to seize our public lands in Wyoming and sets up a process for the sale of those lands.
- HB 126 - Public land access. An attack on public lands management, including the protection of streams and wildlife habitat.​

I even got some chuckles from the Oregon Cattlemen's Assn., when I said I made beef stew, but instead of beef, I used pork, and it turned out so awful, neither I, nor my cats, would eat it.

 

[OCR]

Also, going through the tribal web sites, it doesn't appear that they want to go back to living in tee-pees...

I wasn't aware of any antelope, so I googled it...

Lol... maybe you should have googled tee-pees, as well... I guess you can call them that if you want, though......BTW, even though I'm not a Native American, I do live ... here .

 

[jim hardy]

Even Pretty Shield admitted 100 years ago, that some things were better. But as I pointed out above, there are still things that need to be fixed.

I too prefer the creature comforts of mechanized society. Given all the wealth it's brought us i share your sentiment we ought , and can afford , to be considerate of the critters and not totally act like the invasive species we are. ( Is there a grammarian in the house? did i just do a split infinitive? )

 

[OmCheeto]

I too prefer the creature comforts of mechanized society. Given all the wealth it's brought us i share your sentiment we ought , and can afford , to be considerate of the critters and not totally act like the invasive species we are.

Thanks for the mind jog. One of the very first comments I made;

See; "Disruptive Technology".

was probably a bit too obscure, as to what I was referring to.
I probably didn't expand on it, as I view it as a multi-pronged problem.

1. Just because it was considered "OK" for people 4 generations ago to set up ranches anywhere they pleased, doesn't mean that anyone would nowadays consider those "sustainable" habitats for cattle.
2. Just because your great-great-great-grandfather could raise 100 head of cattle on your family ranch, doesn't mean you can raise 10,000 there.
3. Just because per capita beef consumption has been falling for the last 10 40 years, doesn't mean it's Obama's fault. [ref]

4. Thank god the internet wasn't around 100 years ago. Talk about butt-hurt.
[satirical website]

Horse and Buggy Manufacturers Seek Fed Assistance
November 21, 2008
WASHINGTON, DC — Two horse and buggy manufacturing executives made a trip to Capitol Hill on Friday, seeking government assistance for their flailing industry.

During hearings before the House Financial Services Committee, George Thomas Windham, CEO of McCooder & Sons Buggy and Surrey Company, said that the last hundred years has seen a drastic decline in sales, and that unless government action is taken immediately, horse and buggies will disappear from the American landscape.

“Horse and buggies have been the backbone of American commerce since the Pilgrims first landed at Plymouth,” said Windham. “How goes the horse and buggy, goes the country.”​

[/satirical website]​

Anyways...
I'm not one to side with any side, but like to look into things.
I'm currently at odds with a native american over a totem pole.
Long story. Totally off topic. So I'll not go there.

( Is there a grammarian in the house? did i just do a split infinitive? )

I have no idea what an infinitive is.

"Damn it ol' Jim! I'm an electrician, not a grammarian!"

 

[OmCheeto]

Good news just keeps rolling in...

Northwest Treaty Tribes
1 hr ago
“Big things can happen if people persevere,”

ELWHA RIVER — The Elwha watershed is booming with new life, after the world’s largest dam removal.
...
“Back in 1990, you ask somebody in Anywhere, USA, about dam removal,” McHenry said, “they would have told you that you were nuts.”
Not anymore. Washington, still one of the most hydropower-rich states in the nation, is also today the world’s dam-busting pioneer.
...
PacifiCorp did the math on keeping the Condit Dam on the White Salmon River in Southwestern Washington and blew it up with one blast on Oct. 28, 2011.​

[ref]


hmmm...
Wondering if that kid I made friends with, from Pacificorp, years ago, had anything to do with that.

Smart kid.

 

[mheslep]

What is the evidence to support such a claim?

As others have https://nrimp.dfw.state.or.us/web%20stores/data%20libraries/files/OWEB/OWEB_920_2_Bully%20Creek%20WS%20Assessment%20and%20Strategy%20pt1of3.pdf (page 17):

...The earliest dates for human occupation of eastern Oregon (about 13,000 years ago) ...
...
Beginning about 1,000 years ago, the Northern Paiute moved into the area...

The above refers to part of the Oregon Maheur refuge area (http://www.fws.gov/refuge/Malheur/about.html), not just the Paiute reservation in Oregon created by Grant. In any case, the pre-columbian history was not my main point. I drew attention to the history in that area to illustrate granting ownership of federal land to the Paiutes would be arbitrary, especially if done so selectively. So again, when you state:

It would seem fair to return it to the Paiute, who could then properly manage the land.

On what basis do you deem selecting the Paiutes for ownership in Oregon (or Nevada) is fair, and why apply the basis only in Oregon (or Nevada)?

 

[A Gene]

See; "Disruptive Technology".

sounds like the mark of the beast, or apdn.

 

[OmCheeto]

And as for whether or not the Paiutes would want any of the disputed land...

BLM pulls workers from Gold Butte after shots fired near surveyors
June 11, 2015​

Dispute Over Cattle Grazing Disrupts Patrols Of Federal Land
Jan 27, 2016
...
It's safe to travel into the area called Gold Butte so long as you're not in a federal vehicle, according to Jaina Moan of Friends of Gold Butte, which wants to see the area federally protected.

The last time there was any known federal presence was last summer, when scientists under contract with the Bureau of Land Management were camped here, gathering field research.

"Unfortunately that also was canceled after shots were fired at one of the contract crews," Moan says.
...

Lawmakers Rush Bill To Shield Name Of Officer Who Shot LaVoy Finicum
Feb 14, 2016
...
Evans, the OSP superintendent, said Harney County Sheriff Dave Ward was shadowed while Christmas shopping with his family by men openly carrying guns and that his wife had her car tires slashed. Evans said a state police officer involved in a drunk driving arrest — of a man who reportedly was going to be a bodyguard for occupation leader Ammon Bundy — had his house spray painted.
Law enforcement and other government officials have been “in fear of retaliation or kidnapping or other things,” Evans said.

The bill passed the committee on a 9-0 vote and Barker said he expected the measure to soon be on the House floor

If I were the Paiutes, I'd stay the hell away. These people are seriously out of control.

 

[1oldman2]

looks as if the clock keeps being set back in regards to "earliest inhabitants"
http://westerndigs.org/stone-tool-u...ts-at-oldest-human-occupation-in-western-u-s/