News Was the FBI Agent Indicted in the Oregon Standoff Case?

[Astronuc]

House Moves On Bills That Would Allow States To Seize Millions Of Acres Of Public Lands
http://thinkprogress.org/climate/2016/02/23/3752342/bundy-copycat-bills-public-lands/

 

[jim hardy]

Hmmm
in God i trust
politicians not so much...

looking back over my life
i rather wish Marco Island had stayed undeveloped. One of the few sugar-sand beaches you could drive to.

Fortunately for my kids, when they were little boat access to Cape Sable was still allowed . Lots of memories..

 

[jim hardy]

Finicum's autopsy is out.

http://media.oregonlive.com/oregon-standoff/other/2016/03/08/Finicum autopsy report.pdf

 

[mheslep]

House Moves On Bills That Would Allow States To Seize Millions Of Acres Of Public Lands
http://thinkprogress.org/climate/2016/02/23/3752342/bundy-copycat-bills-public-lands/

Just noticing this... "Seize" is being used by that TP author for provocation I suspect. The last time a state actually seized anything from the federal government was 1860. The *publicly* elected government of, say, Utah does not "seize" federal land in Utah under the proposed law. Control transfers to the state. The state can hardly do worse that the record of federal land management.

Does government seize a share of my income?

 

[p1l0t]

Haha this is almost a necrobump

 

[nsaspook]

http://nypost.com/2016/10/27/oregon-militia-leaders-acquitted-in-wildlife-refuge-standoff/

Armed militants who took over a federal building and wildlife refuge in Oregon in a deadly, 41-day standoff with authorities were acquitted of all charges Thursday.

The seven anti-government militia members, led by brothers Ammon and Ryan Bundy, were found not guilty of conspiracy and weapons charges in the standoff at the Malheur National Wildlife Refuge.

http://www.oregonlive.com/oregon-standoff/2016/10/oregon_standoff_verdicts_annou.html

 

[gleem]

This is not good. There are enough crazies who will push the limits. Expect more action. The defense was that this was civil disobedience inspired by religion (my emphasis) and an expression of their first amendment rights. In an interview on radio one defendant compared their action to Martin Luther Kings march across the Selma bridge. REALLY?

 

[Astronuc]

Armed protesters who occupied Oregon refuge acquitted
https://www.yahoo.com/news/armed-protesters-occupied-oregon-refuge-acquitted-015842222.html

I can't tell if the jury was sympathetic to the protesters, or if the government presented the case poorly. Civil disobedience and exercising one's first amendment rights is one thing, but taking up weapons and threatening government employees is criminal and is not covered by the first amendment.

 

[mheslep]

Armed protesters who occupied Oregon refuge acquitted
https://www.yahoo.com/news/armed-protesters-occupied-oregon-refuge-acquitted-015842222.html

I can't tell if the jury was sympathetic to the protesters, or if the government presented the case poorly. Civil disobedience and exercising one's first amendment rights is one thing, but taking up weapons and threatening government employees is criminal and is not covered by the first amendment.

Possession of arms is not illegal. Threatening government employees is. Who did Bundy threaten?

 

[Astronuc]

Possession of arms is not illegal. Threatening government employees is. Who did Bundy threaten?

The folks who worked at the Malheur National Wildlife Refuge. If someone showed up at my place of work, with guns, and refused to leave, I'd consider that a threat. I believe it was an armed occupation.

 

[mheslep]

The folks who worked at the Malheur National Wildlife Refuge. If someone showed up at my place of work, with guns, and refused to leave, I'd consider that a threat. I believe it was an armed occupation.

Is it a threat if you are not there? The Refuge building was empty.

This bank in 2011 was very much occupied when protestors entered and refused to leave the lobby. Should they have been given six year sentences?

 

[p1l0t]

This land was your land, but now it's MY land... from California to New York Island...

 

[BillTre]

i live in Oregon and I followed the occupation closely for a while when it was ongoing, mostly from the internet.
The reports I liked the most were from a OregonLive site (which I think is from the Portland paper The Oregonian). NPR was pretty good too.
Both had many stories from local reporters at/near the site. I'm not so sure how many of the network reporters got out there that much (its pretty isolated).

Most locals get really tired of the occupiers. Seemed like they were trying to intimidate people and the locals weren't too happy. Not too surprising.

I was kind of surprised these guys got off, but they were trying to get them on conspiracy which I hear makes conviction more difficult and in some cases could be a stretch.

Comments I have been hearing most are:
- If they were not white guys, they would have been shot.
- What if the Indians at the pipeline conflict were heavily armed?

 

[OmCheeto]

...
I was kind of surprised these guys got off
...

I listened to a podcast this morning: 'This Land Is Our Land' Ep. 11: Verdict [Oregon Public Broadcasting]

One of the people said that even the defense attorneys were surprised.

In other words, everyone was surprised.

One of the jurors has come forward, and explained the decision: Oregon standoff prosecutors failed to prove 'intent' to impede federal workers

Crossing my fingers, that things go better next year.

Nevada trial for Cliven Bundy, 18 others set for 2017

A federal magistrate judge in Las Vegas set a Feb. 6 trial date for rancher Cliven Bundy and 18 other defendants in an armed confrontation with government officers two years ago.​

It's hard to believe this all started 23 years ago. [ref]

 

[BillTre]

I did not know it was that long ago.

All this cr%p because a greedy guy wanted to short everyone else on his grazing fees, using a rational of the land that was the Federal government's (from before the state existed) really belonged to the state government and everyone else wanted what they wanted.

Doesn't explain why they make a latrine in a bunch of Native American artifacts.

 

[jim hardy]

One of the jurors has come forward, and explained the decision: Oregon standoff prosecutors failed to prove 'intent' to impede federal workers

Sounds like anti-government pushback to me.

"...failed to prove intent..." , the juror said ... Isn't that what Comey said about Hillary's emailgate ?

 

[russ_watters]

Armed protesters who occupied Oregon refuge acquitted
https://www.yahoo.com/news/armed-protesters-occupied-oregon-refuge-acquitted-015842222.html

I can't tell if the jury was sympathetic to the protesters, or if the government presented the case poorly. Civil disobedience and exercising one's first amendment rights is one thing, but taking up weapons and threatening government employees is criminal and is not covered by the first amendment.

I was going to call it bizarre, but instead I'll just call it Portlandia.

 

[russ_watters]

Is it a threat if you are not there? The Refuge building was empty.

This bank in 2011 was very much occupied when protestors entered and refused to leave the lobby. Should they have been given six year sentences?

I believe we totally covered this in the thread. You're missing a term in the left half of the second equation: It's:
occupation + guns* = armed invasion.

*including threats to use them.
[edit]
It is worth noting that one potential defendant who followed-through on the threat of violence was not tried on account of the fact that he was shot dead in his violent encounter with law enforcement.

 

[nsaspook]

I was going to call it bizarre, but instead I'll just call it Portlandia.

Conspiracy charges have the potential to be abused by the government so it looks like the jurors made a statement about that here. Because of the not guilty of conspiracy to impede employees verdict the weapons charges were dismissed because they were tied to the act of conspiracy per the feds charges.

 

[mheslep]

I was kind of surprised these guys got off, but they were trying to get them on conspiracy which I hear makes conviction more difficult and in some cases could be a stretch.

Agreed. Trespassing federal property should have been the charge.

...Comments I have been hearing most are:
- If they were not white guys, they would have been shot.
...

Which to me is an offensive comment.

Finicum was shot dead by the FBI. Edit: by OSP with FBI agents present.

 

[OmCheeto]

...
Bizarre. Finicum was shot dead by the FBI.

He was shot dead by Oregon State Police Officers.

After fleeing the officers, Finicum was stopped by a roadblock, where he challenged officers to shoot him. He was shot and killed by state troopers ​

 

[mheslep]

He was shot dead by Oregon State Police Officers.

After fleeing the officers, Finicum was stopped by a roadblock, where he challenged officers to shoot him. He was shot and killed by state troopers ​

Yes, your'e right, shot and and killed by Oregon state troopers after fleeing a road block manned by both OSP and FBI agents.

 

[BillTre]

I read in the paper today that one of the surprised defense lawyers said his client was arrested for stealing a government truck while he was driving it around one of the towns in the area and he was acquitted.

 

[OmCheeto]

Yes, your'e right, shot and and killed by Oregon State Troopers after fleeing a road block manned by both OSP and FBI agents.

I would be SERIOUSLY off topic, if I were to go into why, I was happy to see the FBI involved in this.

As a reminder, the county that this happened in, is larger than 9 states. [ref]
And, I'm pretty sure, somewhere in this thread, I pointed out that there were only 3 local law enforcement officers, to deal with the situation.

 

[OmCheeto]

I read in the paper today that one of the surprised defense lawyers said his client was arrested for stealing a government truck while he was driving it around one of the towns in the area and he was acquitted.

My only guess on that one, being a not-a-lawyer, is...

Ok. Even if I were a lawyer, I would be confused.

Having not sat in on the trial, I can only repeat what Billy said, some several hundred years ago; "Let's kill all the [unscrupulous] lawyers"

 

[nsaspook]

Having not sat in on the trial, I can only repeat what Billy said, some several hundred years ago; "Let's kill all the [unscrupulous] lawyers"

When you're guilty that's the sort of lawyer you want.

 

[BillTre]

He was shot dead by Oregon State Police Officers.

After fleeing the officers, Finicum was stopped by a roadblock, where he challenged officers to shoot him. He was shot and killed by state troopers ​

As I recall, he sounded like a case of suicide by cop.

 

[SW VandeCarr]

Having not sat in on the trial, I can only repeat what Billy said, some several hundred years ago; "Let's kill all the [unscrupulous] lawyers"

Even more to the point, since this is about who owns the land, "Billy" in his 13th Sonnet wrote:

“You are no longer yours, than you your self here live”

 

[jim hardy]

As I recall, he sounded like a case of suicide by cop.

Videos are all over the internet.
here's one from CBS


Suicide or bad judgement. Looks like he exited truck with hands up but got defiant.

Another video from inside his vehicle .


When you taunt men with guns you just might get shot.
I think had he made some submissive gesture and surrendered he'd only have got arrested.

old jim

 

[nsaspook]

http://www.oregonlive.com/oregon-standoff/2017/06/fbi_agent_indicted_in_connecti.html

An FBI agent accused of lying about firing two shots at Oregon standoff spokesman Robert "LaVoy" Finicum faces a five-count indictment, charging him with three counts of making a false statement and two counts of obstruction of justice.