What are the axioms of Classical Physics?

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around identifying the axioms of Classical Physics, exploring various foundational principles across different domains such as mechanics, thermodynamics, and electromagnetism. Participants are considering what constitutes an axiom versus a derived principle.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Debate/contested
  • Technical explanation

Main Points Raised

  • One participant suggests that a potential axiom could be the principle of least action, represented as \(\delta{S} = 0\).
  • Another participant mentions Newton's three laws of motion as key axioms, while noting that conservation of work is a theorem, not an axiom.
  • Several participants list foundational principles from various fields: thermodynamics (laws of thermodynamics), electromagnetism (Maxwell's equations), and mechanics (Newton's laws).
  • One participant proposes that the axioms for electromagnetism might include the concept of charge associated with particles, suggesting a more foundational approach than Maxwell's equations.
  • A participant introduces the idea of conservation of mass as a fundamental axiom in classical mechanics, equating its importance to Newton's laws.
  • Another participant outlines a potential axiomatic basis for Classical Nonrelativistic Mechanics, including Newton's laws and the principle of independence of the action of forces.
  • Discussion also touches on the variational principle in Lagrangian and Hamiltonian formulations as foundational to classical mechanics.
  • One participant mentions the existence of axiomatic formulations in equilibrium thermodynamics and statistical physics.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express a variety of viewpoints regarding what constitutes an axiom in Classical Physics, with no consensus reached on a definitive list. Multiple competing views remain on the foundational principles across different domains.

Contextual Notes

Participants highlight the distinction between axioms and derived principles, indicating that some proposed axioms may depend on specific formulations or contexts, such as Lagrangian mechanics or thermodynamics.

Son Goku
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I've read several QM texts which list five or four axioms for Qm, from which the rest is derived.

I was wondering what might the axioms of Classical Physics be.

I'm assuming one of them is:
[tex]\delta{S} = 0[/tex]
What might the others be?
 
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i can't think of any other axioms besides Newton's three laws of motion, there's ofcourse the theorem of conservation of work (but it's not an axiom), and also of momentum.
 
Thermodynamics - the laws of thermodynamics
Electromagnetism - maxwell's equations
Mechanics and gravity - Newtons laws
Statisical mechanics - boltzmann's laws for gases

The axioms of these physical sciences were the axioms of classical physics.
 
Last edited:
meemoe_uk said:
Electromagnetism - maxwell's equations
The Maxwell Equations are derived though. I would have thought the axioms for Electromagnetism would have been something along the lines of:

1. "Particles have a quantity associated with them called charge..."
2. "..."
e.t.c.

From which Maxwell's Equations are derived.
 
Yeah, I'd go for

[tex]\mbox{1. extremizing } \int L dt \mbox{ with respect to neighbouring paths}[/tex]

I can't think of anymore... you couldn't specify L = T - V, of course, because for some systems, that won't hold.
 
A fundamental axiom in classical mechanics is conservation of mass for the material object.
This is as fundamental as Newton's laws of motion for the material object.
 
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An axiomatic basis for Classical Nonrelativistic Mechanics could be

1. Newton's first law.
2. Newton's second law.
3. The principle of independence of the action of forces.
4. Newton's third law.
5. The weak principle of equivalence (stating the equality between inertial mass and gravitational mass).

From these all classical mechanics in inertial reference frames can be derived.

In the Lagrange formulation, we only have the variational principle and the same goes for Hamilton and Hamilton-Jacobi formulations.

For electrodynamics, one could postulate the most general form of Maxwell equations for nonmoving material media.

For equilibrium thermodynamics, we have two formulations, each with its own axioms: CTPCN and neogibbsian.

For statistical physics, we have an axiomatical formulation as well.

Daniel.
 
And add to that conservation of mass.
 

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