What are the implications of a perfectly flat universe?

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Discussion Overview

The discussion centers around the implications of a perfectly flat universe, exploring its ramifications on various cosmological concepts such as inflation, dark matter, dark energy, the nature of gravity, and the applicability of General Relativity (GR). Participants examine how a flat universe might alter existing theories and assumptions in cosmology.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Debate/contested
  • Technical explanation

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants propose that a perfectly flat universe may not require General Relativity, suggesting it could be explained by an initial 'big bang' with matter expanding at a constant velocity.
  • Others argue that space is flat, but spacetime requires curvature, thus necessitating GR to handle curved spacetimes.
  • One viewpoint suggests that if there are no gravity forces constraining expansion, flatness could be a natural outcome rather than a coincidence.
  • Another participant challenges the idea that an expanding universe without gravity could be accurately described, asserting that curvature is needed based on observational evidence.
  • Some participants reference the horizon problem and question whether it is solely an issue with models like GR, suggesting that alternative models might not face the same challenges.
  • There is mention of the dependence of evidence on the cosmological model being used, with a call for clarity on what constitutes valid evidence in this context.
  • A later reply critiques the assumptions underlying GR and discusses the implications of the Cosmological Principle on gravitational interactions at large scales.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

The discussion features multiple competing views, with no consensus reached on whether a perfectly flat universe negates the need for General Relativity or how gravity influences cosmological expansion.

Contextual Notes

Participants express uncertainty regarding the implications of a flat universe on existing cosmological models, highlighting the complexity of gravitational effects and the interpretation of observational data.

  • #31
Rymer said:
Confusion of terms. The universe is capable of being infinite. It has not gotten there yet (as far as we know). The current measurements indicate 'flat' -- but not necessarily 'perfectly' flat. For the point of view you seemed to have adopted this would could be considered to be consistent with a universe being as flat as it can be -- being very large -- but not quite as yet infinite. Infinite universe in the terms you are using would seem to indicate the necessity of infinite time. Since we can point to a finite start time, the universe is not currently infinite.
In this sense it will never be. It is however -- we think -- 'unbounded'.

But who is confused? As I see it, if the universe is infinite, then it has always been infinite (including time), which would mean that the BB theory is wrong. The universe can be unbounded by being spherical. The so called experts say that the universe can be infinite but still expand, and they call us the crack-pots! On this forum, if you don't know the math they know, you're too ignorant to talk to (by some of them).

The finite start time you spoke of is based on the BB theory. Consider this: The moon moves away from the Earth 2.5 inches per year. We can 'play that movie backwards' and find out when the moon was in contact with the earth. Does anybody think it ever was? I don't think so, but they are using the same 'logic' for the BB theory.
 
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  • #32
Actually I'm pretty sure one of the moon formation theories is that a mars-size planetoid thing hit Earth and expelled a chunk which became the moon. Regardless its an oversimplification to assume that the BB theory is simply an extrapolation of space expanding to a 'point'. As I've said before: the big bang wasn't an explosion in space it was an explosion of space.
 

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