What Are the Key Differences Between Realism, Idealism, and Mysticism?

[wuliheron]

Originally posted by Royce
I've been reading the lastest post again this morning. I seem to agree with you again, wuli, but that is only natural due to my Platonic leaning. Odd how they are so similar to Asian thought. That may be why I'm Semi-Platonic. I prefer to take a holistic few of things also. I don't believe that we can understand anything by reductionism unless we use it as a tool to discuss one particular point in one particular frame of reference. That may be useful at times but IMO has little to do with the reality in which we live, the forest and the tree thing again.
As for my medications, I really don't think Tylanol Allergy, insulin, and a diuretic are mood altering or require Situational Ethics. There I answered your question so quit trying to put me on the spot. I'm a moral Libertarian in my mind so I guess that put me a little left of you unless your so far right that your on my left or surround me being both left and right as on a circle. Probably deep in my heart of hearts I'm an anarchist too as I hate and mistrust all government.

Diuretics definitely are mood altering substances, nothing like a good dump to start your day off on the right foot. However, I was not trying to put you on the spot, my sense of humor can be pretty earthy if you haven't noticed yet--I live on a commune where we compost everything. :0)

Amoral Anarchists are as far left on the political spectrum as it gets, so you are a bit to the right of me. That is, unless you live in a communist country where the scale is reversed and Amoral Anarchists are considered to be as conservative and far to the right as you can go. Of course, being an anarchist I see myself as a-political and outside such catagorization altogether.

Plato was an interesting fish who defined the qualitative tone of western fundamentalism still evidenced to this day. His pupil, Aristotle, later defined the quantitative logistics of western fundamentalism. Together they established the philosophical and scientific foundations of western civilization that led to the development of the modern world.

 

[Royce]

A diuretic is to help get rid of excess water which can cause high blood pressure, but your point is well taken a good pee is almost as good as a good dump.
Of course I knew it was humor or at least what passes for humor to us. I was just responding in the same vein.( is that the word I want or just misspelled?)
As far as the circle is concerned I'm even more confused than before as I'm sure you meant me to be. You are intensionally hard to pin down even on the circumference of a circle, just as I am; but, I still think that you have me surrounded, outflanked and covered where we over lap.
I find it amazing that after all these centuries of thought that we can still trace the roots right back to Plato and Aristotle and still have to argue and debate the merits of each view depending on the circumstanses. Talk about getting down to basics.

Boulderhead: I read it. I even regonized some of the words. I'm afraid it is far too deep for me to understand or contemplate. I am much more down to Earth and my reality is much simpler than that. That obviously puts me way down at the bottom of the chart. I'm afraid I took Buddha to heart when I read that he said to let God and Heaven take care of themselves and live the here and now in the moment. I'm far too busy surviving and trying to come to terms with myself and my own thoughts and ideas to go that deep into spiritual cosmology though I know the Spiritual and Physical Cosmology are one in the same but different aspects or faces or levels of it. I am not that familiar with Hindu or Indian thought to give an opinion. I would have to read it several times and contemplate it and meditate on it for a while; but, I don't see that any of that matters at all to us lowly evolving beings. Maybe much later when we reach much higher levels of consciousness it will matter and we will understand it. Right now it is far to esoteric for me to even consider. But, thanks. I did enjoy reading it and being exposed to it. I liked the way he brought Hinduism (if that's the right word) and Buddhism together.

 

[wuliheron]

Originally posted by Royce
A diuretic is to help get rid of excess water which can cause high blood pressure, but your point is well taken a good pee is almost as good as a good dump.

Better out than in my grandfather used to say. :0)

As far as the circle is concerned I'm even more confused than before as I'm sure you meant me to be. You are intensionally hard to pin down even on the circumference of a circle, just as I am; but, I still think that you have me surrounded, outflanked and covered where we over lap.
I find it amazing that after all these centuries of thought that we can still trace the roots right back to Plato and Aristotle and still have to argue and debate the merits of each view depending on the circumstanses. Talk about getting down to basics.

I really don't intend to be difficult to pin down, it's just the nature of the subject. Rather than being a simple issue that can be easily related in non-vague terms such as "The table is black", my philosophy focuses on attitude as all Asian thought does. Hence, it is not so much the complexity of the issue that makes it difficult for many people to understand, but their own attitudes.

The vast majority of humanity suspects the validity of their own feelings and attitudes and, to a certain extent, rejects them in favor of abstract thoughts. In a very real sense, this is an inherent and acquired habitual pretense. There ain't nobody home but us chickens and to reject the validity of our feelings is, ironically and humorously, to assert their validity.

As often happens in the case of pretenses and habits, they can backfire on us when reality slaps us in the face. This is the essential mistake of the website BoulderHead has posted as well, it attempts to interpret Asian thought purely in abstract intellectual terms when the issue on the table is attitude. I laughed out loud when the author started calling certain viewpoints "stupid", it was an example of the "pot calling the kettle black."

Another example, the author of BH's website describes reality as ineffable. This is often something that perplexes westerners about Taoism: If the Tao that can be spoken of is not the eternal Tao, then why do Taoists talk about it? Likewise, if the author of BH's website believes reality is ineffable, why does he persist in writing about it? The answer is that reality is not ineffable nor is the Tao, but they are as difficult to explain to someone whose eyes are closed to them as anything else. Lao Tzu expressed this situation with his characteristic dry humor-that-is-not-humor:

. Imperceptible

When the great man learns the Way,
He follows it with diligence;
When the common man learns the Way,
He follows it on occasion;
When the mean man learns the Way,
He laughs out loud;
Those who do not laugh, do not learn at all.
Therefore it is said:
Who understands the Way
Can seem foolish;
Who progresses on the Way can seem to fail;
Who follows the Way can seem to wander.
For the finest harmony can appear plain;
The brightest truth can appear colored;
The richest character can appear incomplete;
The bravest heart can appear meek;
The simplest nature can appear inconstant.
Love, perfected, has no climax;
Art, perfected, has no meaning.
The Way can be neither sensed nor comprehended:
It transmits sensation
And transcends knowledge.

 

[BoulderHead]

if the author of BH's website believes reality is ineffable, why does he persist in writing about it?

Hmm, yeah that seems a good point. I thought the first page was better spoken. He didn’t seem as prejudiced there to me when he started off with;

Reality by its very nature is inconceivable and indescribable

Even this I suppose might be making too much of a claim, yet compare that statement to;

The Way can be neither sensed nor comprehended:
It transmits sensation
And transcends knowledge

Are there not some similarities?

Hence, it is not so much the complexity of the issue that makes it difficult for many people to understand, but their own attitudes.

This reminds me of a line from a movie; “I seek not to know the answers, but to understand the questions” I always thought that was a good statement to make me turn inwards and look at myself.

As often happens in the case of pretenses and habits, they can backfire on us when reality slaps us in the face.

Yes, but this ‘reality’, I’m still trying to understand all the options. Perhaps this is something I will not be able to do.

 

[wuliheron]

Originally posted by BoulderHead
Even this I suppose might be making too much of a claim, yet compare that statement to;

The Way can be neither sensed nor comprehended:
It transmits sensation
And transcends knowledge

Are there not some similarities?

Yes and no, there are similarities but they are not exact by any stretch. For example, the Tao is not ineffable (ie unspeakable) and can be inferred from nature.

This reminds me of a line from a movie; “I seek not to know the answers, but to understand the questions” I always thought that was a good statement to make me turn inwards and look at myself.
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As often happens in the case of pretenses and habits, they can backfire on us when reality slaps us in the face.
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Yes, but this ‘reality’, I’m still trying to understand all the options. Perhaps this is something I will not be able to do.

That's putting it mildly! There is just no way to understand all the possibilities! In order to hear the question, much less understand the question, requires acceptance. When we are without doubt, without hesitation, without conflict, preconceptions, or preoccupations then the questions and answers arise naturally and harmoniously. In fact, this is what distinguishes sincere questions from rhetorical ones.

 

[Royce]

Wuli and BH, I can remember the first time I read the Tao. I was as I said before in my late teens and of course a product of western culture in unfamiliar with asian thought. It was incomprehensable to me. Try as I might I couldn't gab a hold of it and study it to better understand and know. I knew, I guess intuitively that there was something of great substance and importance there but I just couldn't gett a hold of it. Finally, I just gave up. I think now that some of Tao was sinking in despite my western tendency to wrestle it to the ground and disect it. I quit trying to undstand it and make it make sense to me and I simplt read it. I read it over and over again, at least some passages unil I knew without understdanding or wrestling or trying. I loved and still love that book.
Much later when an adult with a family and having a pretty good grasp of Zen at least by western standards, I read Tao again. What a difference, what a happy, funny, joy. I laughed out loud at times, chuckled quitely to myself at others but always had a smile on my face and in my heart and soul, especially when I remember how I struggled vainly with it the first time when I was so young. I will soon read it again after I finish Alan Watts's Tao The Watercourse Way.
I'm not bragging; trying to impress you with how enlightened I am.
Just the opposite, I'm trying to illustrate how hard it is for us westerners to get it. That the hardest thing for us to do is let go and let it happen. Read the book enjoy the book and let it happen.
We can't make it happen we can't even get a good hold of it muchless wrestle it to the ground.

 

[wuliheron]

Originally posted by Royce
I'm not bragging; trying to impress you with how enlightened I am.
Just the opposite, I'm trying to illustrate how hard it is for us westerners to get it. That the hardest thing for us to do is let go and let it happen. Read the book enjoy the book and let it happen.
We can't make it happen we can't even get a good hold of it muchless wrestle it to the ground. [/B]

Actually, wrestling with the Tao Te Ching is what it is for. It is written in a particular style that encourages those of argumentative disposition to argue with the text. Eventually the reader realizes subconsciously at least that it is futile to do so, that the text really doesn't assert anything but just describes, and has great depth.

I did the same thing and some Asians say I shouldn't be talking about this aspect of the Tao Te Ching--its like giving away the ending to a good movie. :0)

 

[Royce]

From "Tao The Watercourse Way" by Alan Watts.

"However, a one-sidedly literary and academic approach to the Tao gives nothing of its essence, so that to understand what follows the reader must now, and each subsequent reading, allow himself to be in the proper state of mind. You are asked - temporarily, of course- to lay aside all your philosophical, religious, and political opinions, and to become almost like an infant, knowing nothing. Nothing, that is , except what you actually hear, see, feel, and smell. Take it that you are not going anywhere but here, and that there never was, is or will be any other time than now. simply be aware of what actually is without giving it names and without judging it, for you are now feeling out reality itself instead of ideas and opinions about it. There is no point in trying to suppress the babble of words and ideas that goes on in most adult brains, so it if won't stop, let it go on as it will and listen to it as if it were the sound of traffic or the clucking of hens.
Let your ears hear whatever they want to hear; let your eyes see whatever they want to see; let your mind think whatever it wants to think; let your lungs breathe in their own rhythm. Do not expect any special result, for in this wordless and idealess state, where can there be past or future, and where any notion of purpose Stop, look and listen... and stay there awhile before you go on reading."

I guess that your saying that only by wrestling with it can we learn that wrestling with it is futile. That we have to let go and let it happen. Reminds me of what a lot of Christians are say now-a-days; " Let go. Let God."

 

[wuliheron]

Originally posted by Royce
I guess that your saying that only by wrestling with it can we learn that wrestling with it is futile. That we have to let go and let it happen. Reminds me of what a lot of Christians are say now-a-days; " Let go. Let God."

Exactly, it is what is usually called surrender and what philosophical Taoists often prefer to call acceptance. Whether God or just our natural spontenaity it always arises from a calm and relaxed serene attitude that allows us to take in existence as it presents itself.

Quiet

Great perfection seems incomplete,
But does not decay;
Great abundance seems empty,
But does not fail.
Great truth seems contradictory;
Great cleverness seems stupid;
Great eloquence seems awkward.
As spring overcomes the cold,
And autumn overcomes the heat,
So calm and quiet overcome the world.

 

[Royce]

Hush, listen, there it is again.

It can plainly be heard above the din,

Of cannon roar and dropped pin,

Hush, listen, let the silence come in.