What are the Three Sources of Red-Shift in Astronomical Observations?

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the sources of redshift in astronomical observations, specifically examining whether there are three distinct sources or if some are equivalent. Participants explore the classical and relativistic Doppler shifts, as well as redshifting due to the expansion of space, and how these apply to phenomena such as retreating galaxy clusters.

Discussion Character

  • Debate/contested
  • Technical explanation
  • Conceptual clarification

Main Points Raised

  • One participant suggests three potential sources of redshift: classical Doppler shift, relativistic Doppler shift, and redshifting from the expansion of space, questioning if there are only two distinct sources.
  • Another participant argues that the classical Doppler shift is a low-velocity approximation of the special-relativistic Doppler shift, proposing that in special relativity, there is effectively one kind of Doppler shift due to relative motion.
  • A different viewpoint states that in general relativity, both kinematic and gravitational Doppler shifts exist, and when applied to cosmology, the distinction between them becomes unclear, as all cosmological redshifts can be interpreted as a combination of these shifts.
  • One participant asserts that there is fundamentally one type of redshift, which can be approximately divided into components under certain symmetries, such as gravitational and Doppler redshift, or redshift from expansion and peculiar motion.
  • A later reply expresses gratitude for the insights shared by other participants.
  • Another participant introduces a concept about the balance of visible and invisible space in astronomical observations, though this point is less directly related to the redshift sources discussed.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the number and nature of redshift sources, with no consensus reached on whether there are three distinct sources or if they can be unified under fewer categories.

Contextual Notes

The discussion includes assumptions about the applicability of different redshift interpretations based on the symmetries present in the models used, and the complexity of defining relative motion in general relativity is noted as a limitation in the clarity of the distinctions made.

nomadreid
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There appears to be three sources of red-shift: or are there only two, and two of the following are equivalent?
(1) Classical Doppler shift
(2) Relativistic Doppler shift
(3) Red-shifting from the expansion of space
Otherwise put, which ones are calculated for retreating galaxy clusters and the like?
Thanks.
 
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The classical Doppler shift is just the low-velocity approximation to the special-relativistic Doppler shift.

In SR, there is only one kind of Doppler shift, which is the kinematic Doppler shift due to the relative motion of the source and the observer.

In GR, you get both kinematic and gravitational Doppler shifts ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pound-Rebka_experiment ).

When you apply GR to cosmology, there is no clear distinction between kinematic and gravitational Doppler shifts. This is because GR doesn't have an unambiguously defined way of defining the relative motion of two objects that are distant from one another. All cosmological redshifts can be interpreted as kinematic or gravitational, or as some combination of those.
 


There is only one type of redshift. You can split it approximately into different components if you have certain symmetries to exploit.
For example, if you can define reasonably well static coordinates (approximate time-translation symmetry), you speak of gravitational and doppler redshift. (The latter is always the relativistic one).
Or, if you have approximate spatial homogeneity and istotropy, you speak of redshift from the expansion of space and redshift from peculiar motion.
If you have both kind of symmetries, you can use whichever you want. The physics is not different, it's always GR.
 


Thank you, bcrowell and Ich, for your helpful and quick replies.
 


Increasingly visible space is necessarily balanced with increasingly transparent/invisible space in astronomical/telescopic observations.
 

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