What Determines the Equilibrium Separation Between Atoms in a Lattice?

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the concept of equilibrium separation between atoms in a lattice, particularly in the context of Debye's model of atomic oscillations and the determination of maximum frequency limits. Participants explore theoretical approaches to calculating average frequencies and the implications of lattice periodicity on wavelength.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Conceptual clarification
  • Homework-related

Main Points Raised

  • One participant questions how Debye measured the maximum frequency and averaged over all frequencies present in the oscillation model.
  • Another participant explains that the average frequency can be computed theoretically using a statistical argument, involving a weighted average of frequencies based on the probability of each mode being excited, leading to an integral form.
  • A participant seeks clarification on whether the maximum frequency is derived directly from the formulas and expresses confusion about how the upper frequency limit is established.
  • A different participant references a Wikipedia explanation regarding the minimum wavelength related to equilibrium separation and poses a question about what specifically defines this equilibrium separation between atoms.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express various viewpoints on the calculation of average frequencies and the definition of equilibrium separation, with no consensus reached on the specifics of how maximum frequency is determined or the precise nature of equilibrium separation.

Contextual Notes

Participants mention statistical mechanics and the Bose-Einstein distribution, indicating that the discussion may depend on specific definitions and assumptions about atomic behavior and lattice structures.

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Homework Statement [/b]


Debye considered atoms to oscillate from 0 up to a nu max. It is explained further in the text that the complication (i.e., not all atoms oscillating at same frequency as shown in Einstein's formula) is accounted for, by averaging over all the frequencies present.

How did he measure the frequencies up to the maximum frequency that was present so as to get the average?
 
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You can theoretically compute the average frequency without physically knowing which modes are excited and which aren't. The argument is statistical.

To compute the average frequency, <f> we would compute the weighted average:

<f>=\Sigma_k f_k P(f_k)

That is, we take the frequency of mode, f_k, and multiply that by the probability that the mode is excited. We do that for every possible mode, and them add up all the resulting values. This will give us the average frequency.

The possible frequencies form a continuous set, so our sum becomes an integral:

<f>=\int_0^_f_{max}} f P(f) df

The probability of a given mode being excited is given by the Bose-Einstein distribution:

P(f)=\frac{1}{e^{hf/kT}-1}More detail will be given in any thermal physics or statistical mechanics text (Schroeder, for example)

More info on the web:

http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/solids/phonon.html
 
are you saying that even nu max is directly obtained from the formulas below? this is most of my concern how is the upper frequency limit set?

thank you btw :smile:

G01 said:
You can theoretically compute the average frequency without physically knowing which modes are excited and which aren't. The argument is statistical.

To compute the average frequency, <f> we would compute the weighted average:

<f>=\Sigma_k f_k P(f_k)

That is, we take the frequency of mode, f_k, and multiply that by the probability that the mode is excited. We do that for every possible mode, and them add up all the resulting values. This will give us the average frequency.

The possible frequencies form a continuous set, so our sum becomes an integral:

<f>=\int_0^_f_{max}} f P(f) df

The probability of a given mode being excited is given by the Bose-Einstein distribution:

P(f)=\frac{1}{e^{hf/kT}-1}


More detail will be given in any thermal physics or statistical mechanics text (Schroeder, for example)

More info on the web:

http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/solids/phonon.html
 
on wikipedia I found a reasonable explanation for \lambda minim i.e. \nu maxim. How to get to \nu maxim was what actually puzzled me in the beginning:

There is a minimum possible wavelength, given by twice the equilibrium separation a between atoms. As we shall see in the following sections, any wavelength shorter than this can be mapped onto a wavelength longer than 2a, due to the periodicity of the lattice.

so my question now is,

What defines equilibrium separation between atoms?
 

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