What do large moles on the body indicate?

[Spathi]

TL;DR Summary

People usually dislike people with big birthmarks; it seems that the presence of moles correlate with something bad in the organism. With what?

People usually dislike people with big birthmarks (I mostly mean sexual attractiveness, but not only). It seems that the presence of moles correlate with something bad in the organism. With what?

Is that possibly that the moles can correlate with bad features of character? I have found the photo of Kim Il Sung:

 

[Drakkith]

Is that possibly that the moles can correlate with bad features of character?

Very unlikely. A nevus (the term for moles, birthmarks, etc) is the result of irregular development of certain skin cells during one's life, and there is little connection between common skin conditions such as these and a person's character. Virtually everyone has some number of moles, birthmarks, skin tags, or other nevi.

It seems that the presence of moles correlate with something bad in the organism.

Not necessarily. I suspect a leading cause of the development of nevi is DNA damage leading to abnormal cell division, proliferation, or aggregation and at least one article seems to support this:

Although the genetics of melanoma has been widely studied, much less is known about genes involved in the development of benign moles. Variations in several genes, including FGFR3, PIK3CA, HRAS, and BRAF, are involved with benign moles. The most-studied of these is the BRAF gene. A variant in BRAF leads to the production of an altered protein that causes melanocytes to aggregate into moles. This altered protein also triggers the production of a tumor-suppressor protein called p15 that stops moles from growing too big. In rare cases, BRAF gene variants together with loss (deletion) of the CDKN2A gene causes a lack of p15, which creates the potential for mole cells to grow uncontrollably and become cancerous (malignant). The formation of cancer is increasingly likely when combined with environmental factors, such as cell damage caused by ultraviolet radiation exposure.

Source: https://medlineplus.gov/genetics/understanding/traits/moles/

Such DNA damage or alteration is most likely caused by random chance (always a possibility), chemical or radiation damage, or viral infection. While there may be some congenital/inherited conditions that make development of nevi more likely, these would only affect a very small percentage of people.

 

[Laroxe]

I know that some evolutionary biologist have suggested that as skin lesions are one of the few obvious indicators of disease, we may have become predisposed to avoiding contact with people displaying them. Until fairly recently, some of the most infectious diseases became visible through a range of different skin lesions. These days it has become far less reliable as an indicator of risk, but it does seem people can get uncomfortable making contact, even though most visible lesions we see are harmless to others. This discomfort can be magnified if the lesions appear inflamed, bleed or exclude other fluids, these lesions are usually covered.
Really, as we age certain types of lesions, like skin tags, become more common, but people can be quite familiar with some of these, but there is a large cosmetic industry engaged in removing many of these things.

 

[Tom.G]

In early Summer of this year, when I switched to short sleeved shirts from long sleeves, there was a mole on my arm that had Red lines emanating from it.

I figured "That's not right," and made an appointment with my dermatologist.

Of course by the time of the appointment the Red lines had disappeared. The dermatologist looked at it and said "It's just a mole. Don't worry about it."

I mentioned the Red lines, which triggered "We'll do a biopsy just in case."

Result: "Pre-cancerous, but we got it all."

Lesson: If it's unusual, get thee to an expert!

Cheers,
Tom

 

[gleem]

With regards to moles becoming cancerous, the recommendation is that if the appearance of a mole begins to change get it checked out. Changes include size, shape, color, border, and texture. So know your moles.
It is not widely known that melanomas can occur in places other than the skin including the eye, under nails, in the nose, and in the urogenital area. Usually, there are symptoms such as bleeding, visual disturbance, or pain that are unusual and send you to the doctor (or should) to get it checked out. Incidence increases with age for all types of melanomas.

 

[Mark44]

@Spathi, the picture of Kim Il Sung that you posted doesn't seem to me to display a mole. Instead, the growth on his neck might be a fatty deposit -- also known as a sebaceous cyst.

 

[Spathi]

I have a mole of a diameter approximately 1.5 cm on my back. Should I ask a doctor whether this can be something bad?

 

[russ_watters]

I have a mole of a diameter approximately 1.5 cm on my back. Should I ask a doctor whether this is can be something bad?

Yes. The default answer to "should I go see a doctor for...?" is always yes.

 

[gleem]

I have a mole of a diameter approximately 1.5 cm on my back. Should I ask a doctor whether this is can be something bad?

Most moles are 6 or so mm in diameter. My brother has a birthmark about 2 cm in width. It is flat not raised, dark brown, and irregular in shape. AFAIK it has never changed. The question should be has yours changed any recently? Even if it has not changed, depending on your age particularly if you are younger it may be worth getting an appraisal of the possibility that it could be pre-cancerous and should be closely monitored.

 

[sophiecentaur]

TL;DR Summary: People usually dislike people with big birthmarks; it seems that the presence of moles correlate with something bad in the organism. With what?

Is that possibly that the moles can correlate with bad features of character?

The way that society treats non-standard appearance means that it it hardly surprising if someone with a 'strange' feature gets reactions from the rest of society in ways that could trigger neuroses and hence odd behaviour. This could be resented by the very folks who reacted in an uncharitable way to the original feature. 'You don't look like me so you're bad' is universal in the animal kingdom and is an example of basic Darwinism.

Read 'The Elephant Man' and other stories.

 

[Laroxe]

It's worth remembering that the presence of moles is the norm, they are rare at birth, but a survey in Australia suggested that by the age of 15 most children will have around 50 moles. They frequently appear for the first time during childhood and following periods of significant hormonal change, like adolescence. The tendency to develop them appears to be influenced by genetic's and they do tend to get bigger as we age.

Moles are the result of melanocytes, growing together in groups, and that this, may at least partially reflect a degree of damage from UV exposure, a risk factor for some skin cancers. There is an association between the number of moles and melanoma's and there is the concern that this cancer may be misidentified as a harmless mole. It's a concern, compounded by the fact that this type of cancer, is becoming more common and occurring in younger people. The easiest way to reduce the risk of developing one of these cancers is either to avoid sunbathing, protect your skin with clothing or to wear high factor sun screening creams.

Moles can appear in different colours, shapes and sizes, so recognising the ones that may be risky can be difficult, the important thing in terms of risks is to notice changes in single mole. Moles in a person tend to develop in similar ways, so a useful idea is to compare moles on a person, any that stand out, as in some way unusual or different, may be worth getting checked. Even specialists can have problems recognising abnormalities in moles, so tend to be cautious, and suggests biopsies if there is any doubt. There are some good sites that provide a guide to identifying moles that might be a problem, I haven't provided a link as the advice can be different, reflecting local risks and services, check out your national or local sites, they are usually easy to find. They often also provide detailed preventative advice for yourself and particularly for children.

Just remember, most moles are harmless and these days the majority of moles are removed for cosmetic reasons rather than for health reasons.

 

[sophiecentaur]

Basal Cell carcinoma and Squamous Cell carcinoma can develop from moles. I've had both removed over the years. It's definitely an old mans problem - especially guys who spent a lot of time out in the Sun. If you can manage to kick your local health services into action it can be worth while getting them checked out 'if bigger than the end of a pencil'. But I would have been down the road every year if I'd followed that mantra.

 

[harborsparrow]

Oriental medicine (as in Traditional Chinese Medicine, or TCM) tends to regard moles (and some other skin disruptions) as the skin's ability to eliminate substances potentially harmful to the body that were not able to eliminated by other means (digestion; or mucus from coughing, aka snot). In this model of health, the ability of the skin to help eliminate unneeded, possibly harmful substances from the body is a sign of the organism's immune system attempting to adapt.

I know a few people who carefully have eaten a clean vegetarian diet almost their whole lives. These people invariably have unusually clear skin. So I don't discount the idea that many skin eruptions (not just moles) are a form of elimination.

TCM regards each type of organ system as having not just its primary function (i.e., lungs for breathing) but also a secondary function or functions (i.e., lungs for elimination of toxins by means of coughing up mucus). The skin's primary function is protection from outside invaders, but it also likely has an eliminatory capacity.

Sadly, Western society has little research in whether dietary interventions and changes can help problematic skin conditions such as excema or lung conditions such as asthma. If such interventions do work, they work slowly and require disciplined change of lifestyles that many people are unwilling or incapable of sustaining. I have suffered from such conditions and DID make radical changes in order to prevent the conditions longterm, and so I tend to believe the TCM model.

 

[pinball1970]

Oriental medicine (as in Traditional Chinese Medicine, or TCM) tends to regard moles (and some other skin disruptions) as the skin's ability to eliminate substances potentially harmful to the body that were not able to eliminated by other means (digestion; or mucus from coughing, aka snot). In this model of health, the ability of the skin to help eliminate unneeded, possibly harmful substances from the body is a sign of good health.

I know a few people who carefully have eaten a clean vegetarian diet almost their whole lives. These people invariably have unusually clear skin. So I don't discount the idea that many skin eruptions (not just moles) are a form of elimination.

TCM regards each type of organ system as having not just its primary function (i.e., lungs for breathing) but also a secondary function or functions (i.e., lungs for elimination of toxins by means of coughing up mucus). The skin's primary function is protection from outside invaders, but it also likely has an eliminatory capacity.

Sadly, Western society has little research in whether dietary interventions and changes can help problematic skin conditions such as excema or lung conditions such as asthma. If such interventions do work, they work slowly and require disciplined change of lifestyles that many people are unwilling or incapable of sustaining. I have suffered from such conditions and DID make radical changes in order to prevent the conditions longterm, and so I tend to believe the TCM model.

No, skin lesions can be just benign or can be something more sinister like cancer.
It is nothing to do with the skin some how eliminating toxins.
How would that work? On a cellular level? Biochemical level?

 

[pinball1970]

Sadly, Western society has little research in whether dietary interventions and changes can help problematic skin conditions such as excema or lung conditions such as asthma.

Wrong also.

Asthma/eczema is a current area of research, triggers, prevention and treatment.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dermatitis

 

[harborsparrow]

No, skin lesions can be just benign or can be something more sinister like cancer.
It is nothing to do with the skin some how eliminating toxins.
How would that work? On a cellular level? Biochemical level?

TCM regards the organism's immune system as intelligent on a level we cannot necessarily detect. So, I don't know. Of course it would have biochemical pathways, but study of those biochemical pathways alone is not holistic enough to detect the reasons behind it all.

Note that I am not claiming all this to be correct; merely, I intend to report what I learned about how these conditions are regarded in TCM, which is based on centuries of observation. The approach is so different from Western medicine that not many people become informed about both systems--or even have access to information about TCM.

I can assure you, as someone who has dealt with asthma for decades now, that Western doctors know little about its underlying causes. They dole out drugs to suppress its symptoms, and those drugs themselves may make the underlying condition worse in the long run (e.g., oral steroids which are known to suppress the immune system for at least a year after they are ingested). Having then given an asthma patient a weaker immune system, when the patient gets an infection, they have a more difficult time throwing it off--and get worse asthma as a result--and so get even more drugs. This can lead to a slippery slope unless asthma sufferers learn to manage their condition to avoid situations where they need to take these drugs. However, many doctors do not understand or recognize or admit the problem caused by their lack of deeper understanding.

 

[pinball1970]

TCM regards the organism's immune system as intelligent on a level we cannot necessarily detect. So, I don't know. Of course it would have biochemical pathways, but study of those biochemical pathways alone is not holistic enough to detect the reasons behind it all.

The immune system works on antigens and a biochemical response to those. It is nothing to do with intelligence in the way we refer to that.

 

[pinball1970]

holistic enough to detect the reasons behind it all.

Sounds a bit philosophical and woo to be honest.

 

[pinball1970]

can assure you, as someone who has dealt with asthma for decades now, that Western doctors know little about its underlying causes.

But Asian Drs DO know?

A lot of conditions are idiopathic, this is not new.
As the genome is studied for that this and other diseases better understanding, prevention, screening will become available.

 

[harborsparrow]

Sounds a bit philosophical and woo to be honest.

Well, I am not discounting Western medical science at all. But there are many things doctors are called upon to treat where they will admit--IF PRESSED--that they do not understand the underlying cause. And if you have, as a technologist, ever tried to troubleshoot a complex system whose full operation you did not really understand, you will get what I mean by there are hazards. It is possible in such as circumstance to make things worse in the long run.

And medical science and biochemistry is far from accounting for all the actions that sometimes occur in human health. If you look back even 20 years, you'll see situations where new knowledge has completely changed (or even reversed) how certain illnesses are treated. Decades ago, it was considered impossible that cancers would be caused by viruses--and yet, now, it is well documented that some are (such as cervical cancer caused by HPV).

You yourself need not believe anything of course. But if you go so far as to make fun of people who actually look into a completely different model of human health--that, nowadays, is recognized to work in some cases (consider acupuncture)--then I think you are being a bit foolish. Open mind and all that.

Personally, once I had visited many doctors for my asthma and realized they were treating symptoms only, I looked into Traditional Chinese Medicine, which clearly claims that "with significant lifestyle changes", conditions such as asthma can be reversed or at least controlled. And I found that it was true in my case. Forty years ago, I was ridden with allergies and other "autoimmune" complaints; I made extensive changes in my diet and lifestyle as prescribed by TCM and now, though not completely in the clear, I manage to avoid taking the most egregious drugs given for asthma. This is all anecdotal of course, but along the way, I was curious enough to look into the TCM belief system, and I (as well as a certain number of actual Western doctors) have decided not to dismiss it completely. Although some aspects of it clearly do seem more like hocus pocus (i.e., some of the weird herbal remedies).

 

[BillTre]

But there are many things doctors are called upon to treat where they will admit--IF PRESSED--that they do not understand the underlying cause.

So the TCM practitioners understand these things better? What are their explanations, other than the disposal of toxins thing.

My daughter had asthema for a while, took some meds, got better and non longer needs them.

 

[harborsparrow]

I am glad your daughter stopped having asthma symptoms! Was she a child when the asthma occurred? There seems to be a type of asthma, sometimes called child-onset asthma, that often disappears by adulthood.

Adult onset asthma is far less likely to recede.

 

[Drakkith]

You yourself need not believe anything of course. But if you go so far as to make fun of people who actually look into a completely different model of human health--that, nowadays, is recognized to work in some cases (consider acupuncture)--then I think you are being a bit foolish. Open mind and all that.

The problem is that Western medicine is based on the scientific method, which, while not perfect since it is practiced by imperfect people, has made it by far the most effective medical system that has ever existed. We have literally wiped several diseases off the face of the planet using it and it is responsible for the drastic decrease in infant and childhood deaths, the ability to transplant entire organs from one person to another, and an enormous number of other proven medical techniques. No other system of medicine comes anywhere close. I personally would not be alive today without it.

Yes, there may indeed be some benefit from certain methods in Eastern medicine* in some cases, but there are FAR more ineffective methods and a great deal of just plain bad methods that do more harm that good. To put it frankly, other medical systems are mostly right in the same way that a stopped clock is right twice a day. That and chance. They have little to no understanding of how the body works, especially at a cellular level, and are almost always based more on superstition, guesswork, and dogma than actual observations.

So no, I don't think it's a bit foolish to dismiss such things that contradict Western medicine. You'll be right 99% of the time or better.

*Or any other medical system not based on the scientific method.

 

[pinball1970]

But if you go so far as to make fun of people who actually look into a completely different model of human health--that, nowadays, is recognized to work in some cases (consider acupuncture)--then I think you are being a bit foolish. Open mind and all that.

I am allowed to be skeptical, I was not making fun of you.

You mentioned asthma, so if I am interested in what is going on in my body and medication I look to evidence based physiology, pathology and pharmacology.

If there is a completely different approach then I would like to know the process behind it.

I am happy to say I am ignorant of something like TCM, and acupuncture. Homeopathy I know something about (it made no sense)
Same with reflexology.

IF there are genuine peer reviewed case studies where patients has tried all the usual western treatments but nothing has worked then TCM cured that person then I would read it.

I had a brief look.

This from Cochrane https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S094471132100461X

 

[pinball1970]

Decades ago, it was considered impossible that cancers would be caused by viruses--and yet, now, it is well documented that some are (such as cervical cancer caused by HPV).

Epstein Barr was discovered in 1964 so 60 years ago. this is not new.

conditions such as asthma can be reversed or at least controlled

There is no cure for asthma, this disease has to be managed with life style choices and drugs.

 

[sophiecentaur]

But there are many things doctors are called upon to treat where they will admit--IF PRESSED--that they do not understand the underlying cause.

This is a basic problem of Western Medicine. The basic western approach copes well with a lot of common medical problems because (in principle) it's largely based on evidence and double blind trials etc.. Unfortunately, neither the practitioners nor the patients can deal with mistakes or complaints in a useful way. When things go wrong it becomes a political matter and not just about problem solving. Blame and denial appear much too soon in the process.

You mentioned asthma, so if I am interested in what is going on in my body and medication I look to evidence based physiology, pathology and pharmacology.

This approach may sound reasonable - even to a no-nonsense 'Scientist' but medicine deals with far too many variables and far too few measurements for us to rely on what those three basics can be relied on for. They are the best we have but I suspect they (coupled with the humans who use them) are likely to fail us often. Refusing to step outside those could be to risk failure. The terms of PF limit us to discussing stuff that's far more reliable than most fields of Medicine. We are out of our depth, I think.

 

[gleem]

The problem is that Western medicine is based on the scientific method, . . . .

That is not a great start in a science forum. That is not the problem. The problem is that human physical afflictions are probably our most complex situations. A patient comes in and says, "It hurts here, or I am always tired, or something doesn't look right, or a dozen common complaints related to many different causes that the physician must sort out to find a possible cause to treat or at least relieve the symptoms. Sure physicians are human and make mistakes some honest some stupid. Unlike TCM western medicine identifies an end of a thread that it can follow to a definitive solution to a medical issue. Western medicine cures diseases that TCM cannot even attempt to address. A great deal of problems are related to lifestyle choices which TCM has learned to point out and so has western medicine. It also has its own medicine, herbs, which have some pharmacological effects. But Western medicine through chemistry has discovered, extracted, and concentrated over a hundred pharmaceuticals from plants valuable for the treatment of a multitude of diseases and conditions.

How many Chinese have eschewed Western medicine to their detriment because they are unfamiliar with it and thus distrust it?

 

[Bandersnatch]

Getting back on topic...
Moles like earthworms. Large moles need lots of earthworms. Earthworms live in shallow ground, rich in nutrients.
It indicates the body was buried hurriedly, in the garden.

 

[Laroxe]

It's interesting to be discussing two separate issues which are not well understood, we have no definitive answer to why people get moles but we know there are a range of things that are associate with their occurrence. The responses tend to cover the subject quite well, so I'll move to the second issue, which is about the skin serving as an excretory organ, which I have to say indeed it does. In sweat we excrete a variety of substances, including urea, ammonia, uric acid, amino acids, creatinine, chlorides, phosphates, sulfates, and some enzymes, generally in small amounts but this can be quite variable. We can also eliminate some fat soluble substance in sebum which include some hydrocarbons and sterols, diet, some drugs and our hormonal status can alter the composition of sebum and its viscosity.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7277079/
and a clinical example,
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3567429/

I would agree with the people that say that dietary factors in both Asthma/eczema have been studied extensively and a large number of associations identified, however these tend to support the view that individual idiosyncrasies are the main drivers or triggers rather than any specific causes. Its also true that TCM continues to be the source of a great deal of research but the radically different view of health & illness and the very different approach to diagnosis and prescribing complicate this. This medical system doesn't lend itself to the sort of research that has informed western traditions, and this creates all sorts of problems.

​

 

[Spathi]

TCM regards each type of organ system as having not just its primary function (i.e., lungs for breathing) but also a secondary function or functions (i.e., lungs for elimination of toxins by means of coughing up mucus). The skin's primary function is protection from outside invaders, but it also likely has an eliminatory capacity

As far as as I understand, this is a common point of view of all modern (evolutionary) biology.

 

[pinball1970]

As far as as I understand, this is a common point of view of all modern (evolutionary) biology.

The Liver has over 500 functions.

 

[Laroxe]

An interesting reply but you might wish to consider that even now somewhere between 25 and 50% of prescribed drugs are derived from Plant sources, this percentage is higher in drugs used in cancer treatment.

https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC3560124/

There are some areas in medicine in which the results of research is effectively dominated by the biases of prevailing social beliefs, this is most obvious when we look at lifestyle interventions. Dietary research being a case in point as much of it relies upon weak correlations between poor quality data. The stupidity which generated the myths around animal fat, something that lead to mass unemployment in the diary industry, persisted for more than a decade and effectively prevented the acceptance of more accurate data. Even now, the people responsible are fighting a rearguard action to attempt to defend themselves from responsibility.

Whether attitudes about TCM may be based on ignorance, or not its surprising how often medical researchers look at some the claims, the starting point usually looks at whether certain remedies are actually effective and perhaps surprisingly, there is good evidence that some of them are. The problem for researchers in western medicine is in the complex mix of herbal remedies and the lack of reliable dose estimates. This in effect leads to various dismantling studies to identify which of the ingredients are active, it can be a slow process but might be worthwhile.

Rather like in conditions like eczema or asthma which are not well understood and have no specific or curative treatment we can't simply ignore useful treatments and all sorts of information may provide a useful starting point

 

[pinball1970]

somewhere between 25 and 50% of prescribed drugs are derived from Plant sources,

I have no problem with that, salicylic acid, Cocaine and opium all important drugs and can be obtained from plant material and were before modern pharmacology got there.
I would expect there many remedies out there being used by isolated tribes or completely undiscovered that could be useful.

 

[Spathi]

The problem is that Western medicine is based on the scientific method, which, while not perfect since it is practiced by imperfect people, has made it by far the most effective medical system that has ever existed.

May I post a small counter-argument to this statement? The US has the most expensive healthcare system, and yet the US population is not very healthy. Life expectancy in the US is 6 years less than in Switzerland, and in fact, it has started even decreasing in recent years:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/health/interactive/2023/american-life-expectancy-dropping/

https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC9462908/

 

[Bandersnatch]

And isn't it weird how life expectancy has dropped in Ukraine in recent years, even though it uses Western medicine?
You're comparing apples and oranges. Even in your example you can see how the approach to medicine is not the deciding factor in life expectancy, as both countries use the same. Unless you think that more expensive healthcare equals 'more Western' healthcare, in which case I'd only roll my eyes again.
If you want to compare the efficacy of evidence-based medicine with lack-of-evidence-based medicine (yeah, I've a bias), then you need to eliminate all confounding factors - like politics, systemic inefficiencies, accessibility, social structure and issues, geography, and whatnot. You want to drill down to testing just the essence so that you don't come out having confused correlation with causation.
Put a treatment for a given ailment, like treating infection with antibiotics or acupuncture, into a series of double-blind randomised control trials and see if it works. If it does, congratulations, it's now 'Western medicine'. If it doesn't then, well, I guess it's the other kind.

 

[Frabjous]

The US has the most expensive healthcare system, and yet the US population is not very healthy.

A better metric is how much a country spends on healthcare AND social services.

 

[Drakkith]

May I post a small counter-argument to this statement? The US has the most expensive healthcare system, and yet the US population is not very healthy. Life expectancy in the US is 6 years less than in Switzerland, and in fact, it has started even decreasing in recent years:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/health/interactive/2023/american-life-expectancy-dropping/

https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC9462908/

Ah, but the question is why. It's not because medical knowledge is lacking, it's a mix of issues related to socioeconomics and the like.

 

[sophiecentaur]

Ah, but the question is why. It's not because medical knowledge is lacking, it's a mix of issues related to socioeconomics and the like.

IMO it’s medical knowledge that is actually lacking. Unlike the other ‘Sciences’, medicine can’t be treated piece by piece. Body systems are so complex that Factorial functions take over. There are a few conditions where we can get success with a simple treatment but most malfunctions can only, at best, be ‘helped’ a bit. Knock ons and side effects are always there and medical specialists have to rely on their ‘authority’ to convince a patient that their problem has been solved.
Randomised trials do not confirm theories. They only justify a least bad treatment.

Accident repairs can be a sort of solution when you’re dealing with a system that was working fine before the accident.

 

[Drakkith]

IMO it’s medical knowledge that is actually lacking. Unlike the other ‘Sciences’, medicine can’t be treated piece by piece. Body systems are so complex that Factorial functions take over. There are a few conditions where we can get success with a simple treatment but most malfunctions can only, at best, be ‘helped’ a bit. Knock ons and side effects are always there and medical specialists have to rely on their ‘authority’ to convince a patient that their problem has been solved.
Randomised trials do not confirm theories. They only justify a least bad treatment.

Accident repairs can be a sort of solution when you’re dealing with a system that was working fine before the accident.

I don't agree. Life expectancy and overall health of the U.S. population may be declining (and I stress the 'may'), but I can't see that this is because of medical knowledge, or lack thereof. I mean, they rose to where they were because of medical knowledge and we didn't simply forget that knowledge. An aging population, skyrocketing healthcare costs, and many other factors are key in my opinion.

 

[russ_watters]

May I post a small counter-argument to this statement? The US has the most expensive healthcare system, and yet the US population is not very healthy. Life expectancy in the US is 6 years less than in Switzerland, and in fact, it has started even decreasing in recent years:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/health/interactive/2023/american-life-expectancy-dropping/

https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC9462908/

You're implying Switzerland and other western countries don't have/use western medicine?

 

[gleem]

I don't agree. Life expectancy and overall health of the U.S. population may be declining (and I stress the 'may'), but I can't see that this is because of medical knowledge, or lack thereof. I mean, they rose to where they were because of medical knowledge and we didn't simply forget that knowledge. An aging population, skyrocketing healthcare costs, and many other factors are key in my opinion.

The decreasing life expectancy recently was significantly affected due to Covid. However, there are increasing cancers, especially colorectal, increasing diabetes, and cardiac problems. So health is not improving and not because of lack of medical knowledge. Many cases may be a result of lifestyle choices but it seems that there are significant numbers that currently have no etiology.

 

[Spathi]

You're implying Switzerland and other western countries don't have/use western medicine?

The medicine in Switzerland is cheaper than in the USA, and the difference of 6 years between the life expectancy in USA and Switzerland is impressive.
One more point: in the US currently 36% people are obese, while in the Switzerland only 19%. The obesity is considered to be a disease by the American Medical Assoiciation.
I have some ideas why the population in Switzerland is healthier, but I don't want to explain them here, because they include political science considerations, and I have 8 warning points now(

 

[Drakkith]

The medicine in Switzerland is cheaper than in the USA, and the difference of 6 years between the life expectancy in USA and Switzerland is impressive.
One more point: in the US currently 36% people are obese, while in the Switzerland only 19%. The obesity is considered to be a disease by the American Medical Assoiciation.
I have some ideas why the population in Switzerland is healthier, but I don't want to explain them here, because they include political science considerations, and I have 8 warning points now(

That's fine, but the problem is that you're using two countries that both use western medicine as an argument against western medicine. If both use a similar medical system, but one is healthier than the other, then the problem is not likely to be the medical system itself. Or at least not the fundamental ideas of the medical system. If you want to talk about differences in implementation, cost, availability of treatment, or other similar topics then you'd be okay, but I think that using the difference in life expectancy and health between Switzerland and the U.S. as an argument against the fundamental ideas of western medicine is a flawed argument.

 

[sophiecentaur]

Life expectancy and overall health of the U.S. population may be declining (and I stress the 'may'), but I can't see that this is because of medical knowledge, or lack thereof.

I don't think that's a causal relationship. Quality differences between Eastern and Western medicines seem to be perceived very subjectively on this thread.

The western approach, in my experience, lacks the holistic approach; different hospital departments often seem to act in competition and the 'not our fault' problem is common. Success often seems to revolve about putting off death at the cost of patient suffering and the use of patients as guinea pigs in 'trials'. A difficult issue, of course but medics can turn into enthusiasts and sell experimental treatments to sick people on slim evidence. This can lose sight of the needs of patients and the arguments for and against can be very over-simplified (trying to turn medicine into an Engineering Discipline). But of course without experiments significant advance would be slow.

Eastern medicine has a different approach and the results are hard to compare with what western medicine achieves because of the socio-economic differences.

 

[russ_watters]

The medicine in Switzerland is cheaper than in the USA...

You didn't answer my question. Again: are you claiming Switzerland doesn't use Western Medicine? That seems to be the claim and it is obviously false. What are you doing here? Explain yourself.

 

[Drakkith]

Eastern medicine has a different approach and the results are hard to compare with what western medicine achieves because of the socio-economic differences.

I can't possible see how you can believe this. I am literally alive today because of Western medicine and without it I would have died once or twice over in my life. Eastern medicine would not have saved me because it would not have known how. And I know more than a few other people that are in the same boat as myself. There are absolutely valid complaints about how Western medical systems are implemented and used, but I find very fault with its core principles and I challenge anyone here to provide reliable evidence that another medical system is better than Western medicine.

The western approach, in my experience, lacks the holistic approach

The Eastern approach lacks any coherent approach at all. It's a mismatched and sometimes contradictory collection of beliefs fraught with severe problems that make it woefully inadequate as a medical system.

 

[Spathi]

Oriental medicine (as in Traditional Chinese Medicine, or TCM) tends to regard moles (and some other skin disruptions) as the skin's ability to eliminate substances potentially harmful to the body that were not able to eliminated by other means (digestion; or mucus from coughing, aka snot).

I have a question relating the TCM. I have read in one book, that Confucius wrote, that a common problem of medicine is that the doctor is motivated not only to cure a disease of his patient, but also to trigger a new disease so that this patient will come to the doctor again and pay him more and more money. To solve this problem, Confucius suggested to make all doctors the state officials. Is this idea expressed in the TCM now?

 

[Spathi]

You didn't answer my question. Again: are you claiming Switzerland doesn't use Western Medicine? That seems to be the claim and it is obviously false. What are you doing here? Explain yourself.

Possible I will be able to answer your question (not violating the forum rules), after getting an answer to my question above about the TCM.

 

[Frabjous]

I have a question relating the TCM. I have read in one book, that Confucius wrote, that a common problem of medicine is that the doctor is motivated not only to cure a disease of his patient, but also to trigger a new disease so that this patient will come to the doctor again and pay him more and more money. To solve this problem, Confucius suggested to make all doctors the state officials. Is this idea expressed in the TCM now?

No.

 

[sophiecentaur]

I am literally alive today because of Western medicine and without it I would have died once or twice over in my life.

I believe you, of course and that is good for all of us but personal experience can't really justify a theory. (Occam's Razor?)

The Eastern approach lacks any coherent approach at all. It's a mismatched and sometimes contradictory collection of beliefs fraught with severe problems that make it woefully inadequate as a medical system.

Western Science is basically reductionist and is great a solving and predicting much of our World but many systems (living organisms particularly) can't be tied down in this way. The cupboard full of pills that have a solution to all illnesses will never exist.

We can't dismiss a system of medicine that doesn't define success in the same way as our Western system. Even where death is concerned; in the wider scale of things, an individual living or dying may not be relevant to anyone but the immediate family and friends. No one (few of us) concerns themselves with the life or death of a random inhabitant of a distant country but we may feel the need to contribute to charitable work which may have a statistical result that is 'good' overall. That's a totally personal matter.

I have read in one book, that Confucius wrote

. . . . . . you could also quote from the Bible and the Koran but that is not a justification for any opinion that's offered on PF because it breaks the rules. This thread doesn't sit well on this forum, unfortunately.