What do you think consciousness is?

[Rader]

Originally posted by Mentat
Those things can be observed directly. I used my eyes to find those "truths", and yet they are not exact truths. For example, at the quantum level, anyone subatomic particle can be in two places at once - thus appearing to us to be two particles. So, if I take one particle plus another particle, I could easily have 4 or 100 or [oo].

Yes that's true until there is an observation and the wave function collapes. It seems strange or akward that materialists use this example of subjective reality to describe obejective reality, yet do not want to include it in the equation.

I never said that idealism was a consensus among any scientists, so how can you "agree"? Besides, the scientific method itself is based on the existence of an objective, and objectively studyable, reality.

I said, idealism is a consensus among some open minded scientists who do not see things as a materialist would.
A materialist use subjective material to describe the objective world. Strings and forces have nerer been seen, heard, felt, smelled or tasted.

BS. There is no grounds to either of those claims (that no other beings use the same physics to describe the Universe, or that more profound understanding will have to be "totally different" from that which we've come to now).

Why BS. We have gone from Newtonian, Relativity, Cuantom Mechanics and now Super Strings. Why is there not anything after that? These have been here 1 nano second or 100 years only.

A person who's brain has literally, and medically, died, cannot come back (unless resurrected by God ). People who tell stories of "white tunnels" were not completely dead, but merely what is called "technically dead" which is where the heart stops beating, but the brain is still somewhat active (active enough to keep one somewhat alive).

The problem here is what is the definition of dead. When the machine beeps and the line is as stait as an arrow that's "technically dead" No lungs no heart and no brain waves is "technically dead" but not finally dead. On quote> by you, unless resurrected by God, the body does not come back to life. There are documented cases of "technically dead" coming back to life after several minutes to hours. So when is the body dead? The body is dead when there is no life or consciousness in it allowed by God. A documented case of 60 minutes dead and returning to life is worth study. If the consciousness when dead comes back to life to account its experience when conscious again, then consciousness is not only in the body and mind.. When conscious becomes subconscious and is occupied by another conscious to relate objective reality, then consciousness is not only in the body and mimd.

No there's not.
There is if you look for it.

Fine, and the dream - or hypnotic - state is the second choice "subconscious", not completely unconscious.

OK

"Purpose"[?] I never said dreams had a purpose.

I never said you did, just interested in your opinion. I started a thread on this subject.

 

[Mentat]

Originally posted by Rader
Yes that's true until there is an observation and the wave function collapes. It seems strange or akward that materialists use this example of subjective reality to describe obejective reality, yet do not want to include it in the equation.

Wait a minute, how does QM have anything to do with "subjective reality"?

I said, idealism is a consensus among some open minded scientists who do not see things as a materialist would.
A materialist use subjective material to describe the objective world. Strings and forces have nerer been seen, heard, felt, smelled or tasted.

But they are postulated based on things that have been

Why BS. We have gone from Newtonian, Relativity, Cuantom Mechanics and now Super Strings. Why is there not anything after that? These have been here 1 nano second or 100 years only.

But, really, Relativity and QM were just modifications (denying some of the central postulates, but not all of them) of Newtonian mechanics, which is still useful for day-to-day life. What I'm trying to say is that, while there have been drastic changes in our conception of the Universe, in the past, there is no reason to believe it will happen again (or that it wont, which is why I'm neutral on that subject, instead of claiming one way or the other).

The problem here is what is the definition of dead. When the machine beeps and the line is as stait as an arrow that's "technically dead" No lungs no heart and no brain waves is "technically dead" but not finally dead.

I don't think the brain waves have ever completely ceased (even if they've fallen into undetectability), when a person was "technically dead" but came back.

If all brain activity ceased, then they wouldn't remember a "white tunnel", since you can't remember without your brain.

On quote> by you, unless resurrected by God...

A small joke, mind you.

...the body does not come back to life. There are documented cases of "technically dead" coming back to life after several minutes to hours. So when is the body dead? The body is dead when there is no life or consciousness in it allowed by God. A documented case of 60 minutes dead and returning to life is worth study. If the consciousness when dead comes back to life to account its experience when conscious again, then consciousness is not only in the body and mind.. When conscious becomes subconscious and is occupied by another conscious to relate objective relity, then consciousness is not only in the body and mimd.

But this is all ad hoc, and thus violates Occam's Razor at every turn. Is it not better to stick to less assumptions?

There is if you look for it.

Almost anything can "exist" for those looking for it. Those that "look for" signs of intelligent design in the Universe are going to find it, while those who look for chaos are going to find that.

I never said you did, just interested in your opinion. I started a thread on this subject.

Oh, ok.

 

[Rader]

Originally posted by Mentat
Wait a minute, how does QM have anything to do with "subjective reality"?

In the way that QM deals with things that can not be seen on the fundamental level. If the description of subjective is existing only within the experiencer's mind, where does that put particles. Everytime we delve deeper we are dealing with the subjective, only what can be seen is the objective. Before there was the first observation and that wave function collaped, there was nothing but sujective reality, only because of a Observer, objective reality came into being.

But they are postulated based on things that have been

Yes they are but before they have been, it was subjective reality.

But, really, Relativity and QM were just modifications (denying some of the central postulates, but not all of them) of Newtonian mechanics, which is still useful for day-to-day life. What I'm trying to say is that, while there have been drastic changes in our conception of the Universe, in the past, there is no reason to believe it will happen again (or that it wont, which is why I'm neutral on that subject, instead of claiming one way or the other).

My opinion is that its short minded to think we have done it all. When we are a phase III society system and can harness the energy from an entire galaxy, it will be drastically distinct.

I forget who said it in physics there is two things for sure physics and stamp collecting. By stamp collecting is meant we give names to many things we do not even know what they really are. No pun intended the physicist of today does a fine job of explaining objective reality with experimental objective proofs.

I don't think the brain waves have ever completely ceased (even if they've fallen into undetectability), when a person was "technically dead" but came back.

I agree with that the machines could be not good enough to detect faint brain waves. This could be the reason why they come back, they were never dead, God maybe had no hand here.

If all brain activity ceased, then they wouldn't remember a "white tunnel", since you can't remember without your brain.

Ok let's leave it at that we do not know if there is no brain waves which means total death or if they are just so faint we can not detect them

But that is not the quesion we really want to answer. The important question is does consciousness exist outside of the body whether or not it is alive or dead?[/COLOR

Lets try and reason this out with the data we have. There are thousands of cases of white tunnel dreaming where the patient can descirbe objective reality that occurred during the time period the mind and body is subcconscious.

How can there be no awareness, no perception, no consciousness and yet the conscious mind of the patient later recall objective reality when the patient was in a subconsiouss state.

A small joke, mind you.

I thought you were serious, maybe getting soft or something.

But this is all ad hoc, and thus violates Occam's Razor at every turn. Is it not better to stick to less assumptions?

I am not trying to make a assumption, iam trying to use objective data for proof of a subjective reality.

Almost anything can "exist" for those looking for it. Those that "look for" signs of intelligent design in the Universe are going to find it, while those who look for chaos are going to find
that.

Anything the human mind can imagine will one day be reality.

Oh, ok.

What i want is a new definition for consciousness.1. Consciousness is awareness of itself. 2. Consciousness itself is the universe. 3 The conscious universe is in all things and all things are in the universe, therefore consciousness is everywhere. 4. Consciousness is cummulative and reductive. 5. Consciousness manifests itself on its evolutionary level, although it knows all levels.

 

[Rader]

Well i have pretty much said what i wanted on this thread. I leave to all my friends who answered me, this link.
It is on Conscienciologia the study of consciousness devided into 70 categorical sciences of 12 basic groups. 700 scientific experiments for all who wish to read and investigate them.

http://www.mundoiac.org/

 

[Mentat]

Originally posted by Rader
In the way that QM deals with things that can not be seen on the fundamental level. If the description of subjective is existing only within the experiencer's mind, where does that put particles?[/color]

It puts them as objective, since particles can be seen (in principle).

Everytime we delve deeper we are dealing with the subjective, only what can be seen is the objective. Before there was the first observation and that wave function collaped, there was nothing but sujective reality, only because of a Observer, objective reality came into being.

Not again. Forgive me, but I'm a little tired of the "observer" problem. Curse these books for the layman that make it seem as though QM requires a conscious observer!

Yes they are but before they have been, it was subjective reality.

If they hadn't been observed, they would not have been a subjective reality. Your subjective experience is dependent on your having had an objective world to experience.

My opinion is that its short minded to think we have done it all. When we are a phase III society system and can harness the energy from an entire galaxy, it will be drastically distinct.

I don't think we've done it all. I think there might need to be a complete revision of everything but that that's just as likely as that there will only need to be modifications.

I agree with that the machines could be not good enough to detect faint brain waves. This could be the reason why they come back, they were never dead, God maybe had no hand here.

I never said He did.

Ok let's leave it at that we do not know if there is no brain waves which means total death or if they are just so faint we can not detect them

As you wish.

But that is not the quesion we really want to answer. The important question is does consciousness exist outside of the body whether or not it is alive or dead?

Yes, and part of your answer hinged on the out-of-body experiences which you have now requested that we leave out.

Lets try and reason this out with the data we have. There are thousands of cases of white tunnel dreaming where the patient can descirbe objective reality that occurred during the time period the mind and body is subcconscious.

Subconscious, but never unconscious.

How can there be no awareness, no perception, no consciousness and yet the conscious mind of the patient later recall objective reality when the patient was in a subconsiouss state.

If there was no awareness, then they were never aware of a white tunnel. If there was awareness, then they were.

I thought you were serious, maybe getting soft or something.

Making sure I didn't bore you by being "too serious", as I have been accused of many times before.

Anything the human mind can imagine will one day be reality.

I can imagine a human flying without apparatus. Are you willing to stake your life on the assumption that this will be possible one day?

What i want is a new definition for consciousness.1. Consciousness is awareness of itself.

Not necessarily. A being could be conscious of it's surroundings without being conscious of itself.

2. Consciousness itself is the universe.

Impossible, consciousness cannot be both a unique part of the Universe, and the Universe itself.

3 The conscious universe is in all things and all things are in the universe, therefore consciousness is everywhere.

Panpsychism?

4. Consciousness is cummulative and reductive.

Explain.

5. Consciousness manifests itself on its evolutionary level, although it knows all levels.

Explain.

 

[Rader]

Originally posted by Mentat
It puts them as objective, since particles can be seen (in principle).

That is only in part true and you know that. Everything from particles to the the plank length is subjective material. Visual confirmation with experimental confirmed data makes the objective proof.


Not again. Forgive me, but I'm a little tired of the "observer" problem. Curse these books for the layman that make it seem as though QM requires a conscious observer!


Im all ears then expalin QM in another way. Even Albert said he did not understand it. I understand it that way. My whole thesis is based on that fact.

If they hadn't been observed, they would not have been a subjective reality. Your subjective experience is dependent on your having had an objective world to experience.

How can you change my words backwards? There was an observation and therefore there is objective reality.

I don't think we've done it all. I think there might need to be a complete revision of everything but that that's just as likely as that there will only need to be modifications.

Thats a viable possibility but it does not coincide with historical evidence. Science advances in quantum leaps not small modifications. Your looking at it into small a time frame.

I never said He did.

OK But does that mean it is not a possibility?

As you wish.

Only for the moment.

Whether there is no brain waves is not important as it is a aspect of the physical body.

Yes, and part of your answer hinged on the out-of-body experiences which you have now requested that we leave out.

You have a way of twisting my words to suite your intention. An astral trip of two individuals confirming the same objective data is worth looking into. See the link on my previous post.

Subconscious, but never unconscious.

subconscious is one thing as unconsiouss meaning dead.[/COLOR

Making sure I didn't bore you by being "too serious", as I have been accused of many times before.

You are not boring me, be yourself that is why we are exchanging thought.

I can imagine a human flying without apparatus. Are you willing to stake your life on the assumption that this will be possible one day?

Ask that question to Orvill Wright in the context of his time with a apparatus. My answer is "YES" Did you mean with a body or without it?

Not necessarily. A being could be conscious of it's surroundings without being conscious of itself.

That is subconciousness. It is a form of consciousness the dream state.

Impossible, consciousness cannot be both a unique part of the Universe, and the Universe itself.

The universe is holographic as is concsiousness. Same principle all is in every part.

Panpsychism?

The conscious universe is in all things and all things are in the universe, therefore consciousness is everywhere.
My thesis

Explain.

Consciousness is cummulative and reductive. Consciousness is cummulative in evolutionary objective reality and reductive when the form ceases to exist objectivly and returns to its subjective reality.

Explain.

Consciousness manifests itself on its evolutionary level, although it knows all levels. Consciousness evolves through objective realities, the means by which it does is though the total "subjective truth"

We need to ask more important questions. Why is there two realities subjective and objective?

What is the purpose of objective reality evolving?


Why are we on the objective side of reality or are we?

 

[Netme]

Consciousness comes from self awareness which is what most animals use. As our senses take in information from the outside world to our brain this information passes through our brain's electromagnetic field to neurons which then goes back through the magnetic field where a consciousness is formed creating a self-referring loop. This recycling of information through the electro magnetic field in our brains which is created by collective, synchronous neuron firings is what makes us able to recall what we have just done.

 

[Rader]

Originally posted by Netme
Consciousness comes from self awareness which is what most animals use. As our senses take in information from the outside world to our brain this information passes through our brain's electromagnetic field to neurons which then goes back through the magnetic field where a consciousness is formed creating a self-referring loop. This recycling of information through the electro magnetic field in our brains which is created by collective, synchronous neuron firings is what makes us able to recall what we have just done.

Thats a very good explanation of how consciousness works in a body in the objective world when we are in the wake state. When we are in the dream state or subconscious state, there is no information from the outside world to our brain. We can recall our dreams without our senses taking in information from the outside world.
What would be your explanation of consciousness when no biological functions or stimulus are occurring from the outside world?

 

[Mumeishi]

Consciousness is simply the universe existing from a particular coherent point of view within itself at a particular moment. It is a massive convergence of information.

 

[Mentat]

Originally posted by Rader
Im all ears then expalin QM in another way. Even Albert said he did not understand it. I understand it that way. My whole thesis is based on that fact.

Nobody can conceive of QM. We just don't progress that way mentally. Man, centuries ago, didn't need to leap out of the way of one creature jumping at him from two different sides.

As it is, conscious observation is not necessary for Quantum Mechanics to work.

How can you change my words backwards? There was an observation and therefore there is objective reality.

That cannot be true. If there was no objective reality, there would have been no observation, in the first place. IOW, objective reality can exist without being observed, but observation cannot take place without an objective reality that existed before said observation.

Thats a viable possibility but it does not coincide with historical evidence. Science advances in quantum leaps not small modifications. Your looking at it into small a time frame.

And how long did you think science had existed altogether. The human species has existed for less than the blink of an eye in geological or astronomical terms. I've only got "small time frames" to deal with.

OK But does that mean it is not a possibility?

No, but I don't like to cut against the grain of Occam's Razor when I don't need to.

Whether there is no brain waves is not important as it is a aspect of the physical body.

There is nothing to the body but the physical. I've already explained the deductive logical validity of this statement. If there were some non-physical aspect to the body, it would have no way of interacting with the physical aspect.

subconscious is one thing as unconsiouss meaning dead.

What?

You are not boring me, be yourself that is why we are exchanging thought.

Thank you.

Ask that question to Orvill Wright in the context of his time with a apparatus. My answer is "YES" Did you mean with a body or without it?

A human does nothing without a body. Look up the definition of "human".

Besides, flying without any apparatus, if it will be possible at some point, should be possible now.

That is subconciousness. It is a form of consciousness the dream state.

Why do you say that? If I'm not paying any attention to what I'm feeling right now, but only thinking about the words on the computer screen, I'm not "subconscious" or "dreaming", am I?

The universe is holographic as is concsiousness. Same principle all is in every part.

This is becoming a completely ad hoc argument on your side, since this is yet another added assumption.

The conscious universe is in all things and all things are in the universe, therefore consciousness is everywhere.
My thesis

But you have not proven the first two propositions, so "therefore" doesn't really belong in that sentence, does it? You are stating this as though there were deductive validity to it, but there is no proof for the first two premises.

Consciousness is cummulative and reductive. Consciousness is cummulative in evolutionary objective reality and reductive when the form ceases to exist objectivly and returns to its subjective reality.

And yet again, another unproven assumption. You are just digging yourself a deeper hole, as far as making a good philosophical stand.

We need to ask more important questions. Why is there two realities subjective and objective?

There aren't!

What is the purpose of objective reality evolving?

Does purpose exist, Rader?

 

[Rader]

Originally posted by Mentat
Nobody can conceive of QM. We just don't progress that way mentally. Man, centuries ago, didn't need to leap out of the way of one creature jumping at him from two different sides.

But we have models and ideas to rationalize how it works and we know it does or we would not be able to watch TV.

As it is, conscious observation is not necessary for Quantum Mechanics to work.

Thats not the way the particles are described in physics. They can not be located until observed.

That cannot be true. If there was no objective reality, there would have been no observation, in the first place. IOW, objective reality can exist without being observed, but observation cannot take place without an objective reality that existed before said observation.

Thats contradictory to what is reality. There must be a first observer then the first wave funtion collapses and the virtual particle leaves subjective reality and becomes oblective reality. The chain of observations continues from 1> infinity > evolution occurs and we exist.

And how long did you think science had existed altogether. The human species has existed for less than the blink of an eye in geological or astronomical terms. I've only got "small time frames" to deal with.

You use my observation and argument to confirm something is not true. Yes we agree we have been here a short period of time BUT scientific advancement is growiing in quantum leaps. 2>4>16>256>65536> not 1>2>3>4>5. Tecknology start slows but when it gets moving it is like a locamotive train.

No, but I don't like to cut against the grain of Occam's Razor when I don't need to.

If nobody cut against grain and disagreed there would be no new ideas and advancement.

There is nothing to the body but the physical. I've already explained the deductive logical validity of this statement. If there were some non-physical aspect to the body, it would have no way of interacting with the physical aspect.

Wrong there is scientific study and documenttion all over the planet that confirms your statement is false.

It has been said that the distance from you and me to the end of the universe is equivilent to the distance from the center of an atom to the Planck length. We have not discovered what is there yet, do you realize how large a distance that is, it is another universe. Yet whatever is there effects objective reality and it is until viewed subjective reality. Yet you say, if there were some non-physical aspect to the body, it would have no way of interacting with the physical aspect. When we can see what is there at the Planck length and it is objective, i will believe it, until then my thesis is as valid as yours.

What?

They should take unconsciousness out of the dictionary or refrase its meaning, as it has the same meaning as subconsciousness. They should take the un and make it a no. Noconsciousness meaning dead, gone back to fundamental base conciousness found in the atom. As you would say electro-magnetic covalent bonding.


Thank you.




A human does nothing without a body. Look up the definition of "human".

Got you there, check mate. You mean a word and meaning in the dictionary makes a divine truth. Human today is not what it was yesterday and not what it will be tomorrow. There is scientific evidence that it is false.

Besides, flying without any apparatus, if it will be possible at some point, should be possible now.

It is, it is called among many things a astral trip.

Why do you say that? If I'm not paying any attention to what I'm feeling right now, but only thinking about the words on the computer screen, I'm not "subconscious" or "dreaming", am I?

You had better go to my thread on Why do we dream? WoW you mean to tell me you do not daydream. Nobody can keep a perfect concentration in the objective world, we move between the objective and subjective during the day as well as sleeptime..

This is becoming a completely ad hoc argument on your side, since this is yet another added assumption.

Without assumption there is no advancement, i do agree that objective proofs of subjective reality is necessary and there are.


But you have not proven the first two propositions, so "therefore" doesn't really belong in that sentence, does it? You are stating this as though there were deductive validity to it, but there is no proof for the first two premises.

The universe is holographic as is concsiousness. The conscious universe is in all things and all things are in the universe, therefore consciousness is everywhere.

There aren't

There are two realities and for me the purpose of the subjective is perfection in the objective.. The question is why? and for me the answer is the beauty of creation is to create something from nothing and evolve into perfection.

Does purpose exist, Rader?

Does purpose exist? Ya for me it does and for who it does not, there is no need for existence. Everything has a purpose...

 

[phoenixthoth]

http://twm.co.nz/consciousness.html

 

[Mentat]

Originally posted by Rader

But we have models and ideas to rationalize how it works and we know it does or we would not be able to watch TV.
[/color]

Yes, we have models that make it easier to work with, and we know that it exists, but we cannot conceptualize it in our minds. Much like a fourth spatial dimension (which must also exist, for string theory to be correct (as I suspect it is ), and for which we can make models to work with the concept) cannot be conceived.

Thats not the way the particles are described in physics. They can not be located until observed.

Yes, but the word "observation" takes on a completely new meaning at the quantum level. There are numerous old threads on this, and the conclusion has always been the same: Though we cannot know for sure what the quantum realm is like, current science dictates that it is probabilistic by its very nature, and conscious observation is not special at that level.

Thats contradictory to what is reality. There must be a first observer then the first wave funtion collapses and the virtual particle leaves subjective reality and becomes oblective reality. The chain of observations continues from 1> infinity > evolution occurs and we exist.

This is the "New Agish" take on QM, but, I assure you, it is not the actual physics. QM, of its own accord, makes no claims with regard to consciousness or conscious observation. There are many experts here on the PFs that will tell you (and have told others) exactly the same thing I'm telling you. QM is a mathematical theory, used to describe quantum reality...it does not need consciousness.

You use my observation and argument to confirm something is not true. Yes we agree we have been here a short period of time BUT scientific advancement is growiing in quantum leaps. 2>4>16>256>65536> not 1>2>3>4>5. Tecknology start slows but when it gets moving it is like a locamotive train.

It would, perhaps, be good for you to study the history of science. There have been very few "quantum leaps" (I never understood that phrase's origin, but I know what it means) in science that were not grounded on "small steps".

If nobody cut against grain and disagreed there would be no new ideas and advancement.

I agree completely on this. However, Occam's Razor is not the same thing as "generally accepted truth", it is a philosophical guideline, that has proved very useful in the past, and is still a part of the scientific method for contructing new theories.

Wrong there is scientific study and documenttion all over the planet that confirms your statement is false.

I'm sorry, but I disagree. "Out-of-body experiences" and other such phenomena can easily be explained (or "explained away", whichever you prefer) in completely physical terms.

It has been said that the distance from you and me to the end of the universe is equivilent to the distance from the center of an atom to the Planck length. We have not discovered what is there yet, do you realize how large a distance that is, it is another universe. Yet whatever is there effects objective reality and it is until viewed subjective reality. Yet you say, if there were some non-physical aspect to the body, it would have no way of interacting with the physical aspect. When we can see what is there at the Planck length and it is objective, i will believe it, until then my thesis is as valid as yours.

The minimal or maximal size of reality doesn't appear relevant to whether there is something non-physical in the universe.

Besides, as I said, there is a deductively valid argument supporting my stand that it is impossible for a non-physical object (by the very definitions of the terms being used) to interact with a physical one.

They should take unconsciousness out of the dictionary or refrase its meaning, as it has the same meaning as subconsciousness. They should take the un and make it a no. Noconsciousness meaning dead, gone back to fundamental base conciousness found in the atom. As you would say electro-magnetic covalent bonding.

I was agreeing with you until you got to the part about "base consciousness found in an atom"...what's that about? An atom is not conscious.

Besides, "un" actually does mean (as a prefix) "no". Dictionaries, as you've implied, do often need rephrasing, however, since they like to cater to the "common-usage" instead of actual meaning.

Got you there, check mate. You mean a word and meaning in the dictionary makes a divine truth. Human today is not what it was yesterday and not what it will be tomorrow. There is scientific evidence that it is false.

Perhaps you've taken a pawn, but there is no check-mate . I understand that what the dictionary says is not necessarily true, but the etymological roots of the terms being used agree with the current definitions...ergo, "human" refers to a physical concept.

It is, it is called among many things a astral trip.

...and is almost always dismissed by serious scholars as "pseudo-science" or "mysticism".

You had better go to my thread on Why do we dream? WoW you mean to tell me you do not daydream. Nobody can keep a perfect concentration in the objective world, we move between the objective and subjective during the day as well as sleeptime..

I "daydream", but I am not doing so right now.

Without assumption there is no advancement, i do agree that objective proofs of subjective reality is necessary and there are.

But ad hoc arguments go against Occam's Razor, as well as against the rational argument itself...there can be no progress if anyone can "prove" their side by adding more and more assumptions (that's why Occam's Razor's so useful, ITFP).

The universe is holographic as is concsiousness. The conscious universe is in all things and all things are in the universe, therefore consciousness is everywhere.

Adding assumptions again...doing this can only lead to a "plug my ears and scream 'I'm right your wrong'" type argument, and is not at all helping us rationalize on this topic.


Got to go right now. Sorry. Will complete response tomorrow.

 

[Jeebus]

We could, of course, discount for these purposes the role of mental qualities in sensing things. But that would undermine the very distinction between being conscious of something by sensing it and being conscious of that thing by having a thought about it. If our awareness of our conscious states involves no characteristic mental qualities, it is indistinguishable from our being conscious of those states by our having thoughts of some suitable sort about them.

We could or can conclude, then, that we are aware of our conscious mental states not by sensing them, but by having thoughts about them. To have a convenient label, I shall refer to the thoughts in virtue of which we are conscious of our conscious mental states as higher-order thoughts.

Just a hypothesis on consciousness, I suppose.

 

[Rader]

Originally posted by Jeebus [/B]

We could, of course, discount for these purposes the role of
mental qualities in sensing things. But that would undermine the
very distinction between being conscious of something by sensing it
and being conscious of that thing by having a thought about it. If
our awareness of our conscious states involves no characteristic
mental qualities, it is indistinguishable from our being conscious
of those states by our having thoughts of some suitable sort about
them.

This is the very essence that distinguises humans from all other animals. Conscious thought, reason, free will and purpose not only conscious stimulus and reaction.

We could or can conclude, then, that we are aware of our conscious
mental states not by sensing them, but by having thoughts about
them. To have a convenient label, I shall refer to the thoughts in
virtue of which we are conscious of our conscious mental states as
higher-order thoughts.

We are aware of awareness, to the point of making conscious decisions based on purpose not only need.

Just a hypothesis on consciousness, I suppose.

I believe it is provable though conscious objective facts, individually and collectively.

 

[Mentat]

Originally posted by Jeebus
We could, of course, discount for these purposes the role of
mental qualities in sensing things. But that would undermine the
very distinction between being conscious of something by sensing it
and being conscious of that thing by having a thought about it. If
our awareness of our conscious states involves no characteristic
mental qualities, it is indistinguishable from our being conscious
of those states by our having thoughts of some suitable sort about
them.

We could or can conclude, then, that we are aware of our conscious
mental states not by sensing them, but by having thoughts about
them. To have a convenient label, I shall refer to the thoughts in
virtue of which we are conscious of our conscious mental states as
higher-order thoughts.

Just a hypothesis on consciousness, I suppose.

Basically this is correct, but I would modify it somewhat, in light of Dennett's reasoning on the matter. You see, it's true that we only ever subjectively experience things (it doesn't make sense to "objectively experience something"...if it's your experience, it's subjective), but the process of subjective experience, is purely a neuronal/synaptic activity, which requires 1) having had previous input from the objective reality, and 2) having remembered it.

 

[Mentat]

Originally posted by Rader
This is the very essence that distinguises humans from all other animals. Conscious thought, reason, free will and purpose not only conscious stimulus and reaction.

Have you read Consciousness Explained yet? Conscious thought, reason, free will (which is dealt with in much more detail in "Freedom Evolves", also by Dan Dennett), and purpose are just advanced (modified and specified) versions of those same "stimulus/reaction" actions of the other animals.

We are aware of awareness, to the point of making conscious decisions based on purpose not only need.

But this is a result of the multi-tasking of sets of neurons...again, you've got to read that book!

I believe it is provable though conscious objective facts, individually and collectively.

So, you mean it's testable, right? No hypothesis can ever be "proven".

 

[Rader]

Originally posted by Mentat
Have you read Consciousness Explained yet? Conscious thought, reason, free will (which is dealt with in much more detail in "Freedom Evolves", also by Dan Dennett), and purpose are just advanced (modified and specified) versions of those same "stimulus/reaction" actions of the other animals.

Its ordered along with Darwins dangerous idea. But first i have to read Power verses Force and The eye of the eye by David Hawkins.

I could advise you to read The self aware universe by Amit Goswani, Totality of implicit order by David Bohm and The self aware universe by Alan Wolf.

But this is a result of the multi-tasking of sets of neurons...again, you've got to read that book!

I will thank you for telling me about it.

So, you mean it's testable, right? No hypothesis can ever be "proven".

HYPOTHESIS> A tentative explanation that accounts for a set of facts and can be tested by further investigation; a theory
Something taken to be true for the purpose of argument or investigation; an assumption.

A hypothesis is testable it works like this thought>assumption>theory>experiment>proof.
These are the 5 basic steps of science. But then again is it not the biggest assumtion of all time to thing that proof will not change.
No experiment is ever finished, since any number of observers may yet observe the results and influence them.

 

[pelastration]

Originally posted by Rader
What would be your explanation of consciousness when no biological functions or stimulus are occurring from the outside world?

Then you capture oscillations of deeper spacetime layers. Spacetime layers act as conductors.

 

[Mentat]

I could advise you to read The self aware universe by Amit Goswani, Totality of implicit order by David Bohm and The self aware universe by Alan Wolf.

Hmm, maybe I will. Not my usual kind of reading, but I like to stay open-minded.

 

[Rader]

Originally posted by Mentat
Basically this is correct, but I would modify it somewhat, in light of Dennett's reasoning on the matter. You see, it's true that we only ever subjectively experience things (it doesn't make sense to "objectively experience something"...if it's your experience, it's subjective), but the process of subjective experience, is purely a neuronal/synaptic activity, which requires 1) having had previous input from the objective reality, and 2) having remembered it.

Dennets proofs or reasoning? Reasonings are assumptions also not proven. There is just as much evidence out there that it works biologically, that there is, that it does not, the evidence of ESP PK NDE DREAMS ect. ect. ect., that consciousness is not only a biological function. There has been research and confirmed results by qualified scientists well above probability. Probability is mathematics.

1) having had previous input from the objective reality, and 2) having remembered it.

You brought up the two points that determine the proof. These two points have been proven wrong in the 1980/s by scientific testing with probability proofs. The tests were to prove, that consciousness is also outside the body, and that it does not need to have either, objective reality experience, or remembrance of it.
It was found beyond probabilty that this was true.

One of the greatest debuncker of charlatans of all time in the end became a believer Richard Hodgson.

Besides, as I said, there is a deductively valid argument supporting my stand that it is impossible for a non-physical object (by the very definitions of the terms being used) to interact with a physical one.

Why is that? That is precisely what happenes when energy is converted into matter. Fuzzy states become objective reality when observed. What does observed really mean? Contact with the wave funtion. Why can not?, the wave funtion of thought, not interact with others to create objective data. Thats exactly what happenes on the fundamental level, with thought waves, its not only internal biologically, only part of the function.

Read the work of Hans J. Eysenck and Carl Sargent

 

[Rader]

Originally posted by pelastration
Then you capture oscillations of deeper spacetime layers. Spacetime layers act as conductors.

Why can not?, the wave funtion of thought, not interact with others to create objective data. Is thought limited to inside your head. Why?

Only with one starting 'membrane tube' everything can be explained

This would be the mother SAS (self aware structure) that no one has yet defined mathematically, to define how fuzzy structures evolve into complexity.

Does your pelastration tube have a mathematical structure defined as of yet?

 

[pelastration]

Originally posted by Rader
Why can not?, the wave funtion of thought, not interact with others to create objective data. Is thought limited to inside your head. Why?

Sorry don't get it.
Spacetime layers interact with each other. Excitations make new couplings: New data.
Spacetime communication by spacetime oscillations is also non-local. (thus not limited to the brain). This is the explanation for example: Jung's unconsciousness.

Originally posted by Rader
This would be the mother SAS (self aware structure) that no one has yet defined mathematically, to define how fuzzy structures evolve into complexity.

I don't claim that the total system is self-aware. Indeed I explain how 'chaos' becomes 'order'. What's your alternative? None. You haven't even a single image to solve that. You are lost in dualism. I just state that from a certain level of complexity you have interactions that provide various levels of information exchange, because specific spacetime levels conduct oscillations which are 'recognized' by other resonant couplings.

Originally posted by Rader
[Does your pelastration tube have a mathematical structure defined as of yet?

You don't have to be a rocket-engineer to understand that if everything happens INSIDE a closed structure ... everything that stays inside that closed system is in balance. There is no lost of energy. So what's your point? Math is just book-keeping.

 

[Rader]

Originally posted by pelastration
Sorry don't get it.
Spacetime layers interact with each other. Excitations make new couplings: New data.
Spacetime communication by spacetime oscillations is also non-local. (thus not limited to the brain). This is the explanation for example: Jung's unconsciousness.

That was a question of agreement. Was justlooking for a deeper answer. The concept is the same. This is how consciousness interact with other consciousness. There have been an exhauted number of experiments with ESP testing of non-local consciousness and the results have been well above probability that they are not chance.

I don't claim that the total system is self-aware. Indeed I explain how 'chaos' becomes 'order'. What's your alternative? None. You haven't even a single image to solve that. You are lost in dualism. I just state that from a certain level of complexity you have interactions that provide various levels of information exchange, because specific spacetime levels conduct oscillations which are 'recognized' by other resonant couplings.

My alternative is, for the the total system to be self-aware, it would need a purpose. That would have to be the first paramenter in order for it to work. 'chaos' becomes 'order' with purpose.

You don't have to be a rocket-engineer to understand that if everything happens INSIDE a closed structure ... everything that stays inside that closed system is in balance. There is no lost of energy. So what's your point? Math is just book-keeping.

You answered my question on your site. Yes i have read also the Michael Kaku comment. But... the book the bookkeeper and the accounting are all important to understand knowledge.

The most interesting and important scientific work is - in my opinion - "deformational structures" of Sergey Kokarev, and contains the WAY to prove TUNITY. I work actually on a mathematical presentation.

I found your site very interesting, many of your points, i found through thouht, many years ago before reading or searching the answers.

 

[Mentat]

Originally posted by Rader
Dennets proofs or reasoning? Reasonings are assumptions also not proven. There is just as much evidence out there that it works biologically, that there is, that it does not, the evidence of ESP PK NDE DREAMS ect. ect. ect., that consciousness is not only a biological function. There has been research and confirmed results by qualified scientists well above probability. Probability is mathematics.

Nothing is provable beyond probability, especially not in Science. QM dictates that all things happen as a function of expressed probabilities. Aside from this, the very Method of Science is an Inductive one, and can only attain Inductive validity...which is not equal to "truth".

You brought up the two points that determine the proof. These two points have been proven wrong in the 1980/s by scientific testing with probability proofs. The tests were to prove, that consciousness is also outside the body, and that it does not need to have either, ojective reality experience, or remembrance of it.
It was found beyond probabilty that this was true.

BS. There's no way this could have been "proven", for the following reasons:

1) It would have created a "shockwave" throughout the scientific and philosophical community that would have put an end to AI research, and would never have allowed Dennett and LeDoux to write their books.

2) Nothing is ever "proven", in science.

One of the greatest debuncker of charlatans of all time in the end became a believer Richard Hodgson.

Irrelevant (no offense); we are not to follow the example of previous skeptics, except in their skill at practicing skepticism.

Why is that? That is precisely what happenes when energy is converted into matter. Fuzzy states become objective reality when observed. What does observed really mean? Contact with the wave funtion. Why can not?, the wave funtion of thought, not interact with others to create objective data.

Because there are no discreet units of "thought" (read the book, man). Besides, thought occurs in brains, which are composed of neurons, which are way too big to be distinguished from a rock at the subatomic level.

Read the work of Hans J. Eysenck and Carl Sargent

Who are they?

 

[selfAdjoint]

Here is Eysenck's obituary. He was a famous and controversial psychologist who emphasized the genetic origins of intelligence and other personality characteristics. I would be very interested to know why Rader thinks he supported PK.

 

[Rader]

Originally posted by selfAdjoint
Here is Eysenck's obituary. He was a famous and controversial psychologist who emphasized the genetic origins of intelligence and other personality characteristics. I would be very interested to know why Rader thinks he supported PK.

It seems to be a biased obituary, that you found selfAjoint, it has that after taste upon reading it. Thanks for leaving the link so anyone can verfify and make there own opinion. Eysenck's wrote after 1980, books publicizing the results of scientific investigation on PK. Prior to that he wrote over 600 publized articles and 32 books, he was an expert in his own field. The whole controversy hear is not who supports what. What does support mean?, that's a new one. The question is >What do you think consciousness is? You have read all my posts. My answer is > consciousness is awarenes inside and outside of biological systems. My conclusion is, that after several decades of hard scientific studies on this question, there is substantial evidence. Substantial evidence is evidence well beyond 50% probabilty graph. I do not use the word proof as proof in scientific studies is only temporal, knowledge changes, or rather our scientific conclusion of it changes. Proof of anything is only temporal !, scientific evidence is a good basis to verfy a objective reality, although even scientific evidence can be wrong or new knowledge added to it, to make it more perfect. Do you really think that the existnece of the electron has anymore verificablity than if consciousness exists outside of the biological system? We each do our best to judge with the evidence on hand. My opinion is based on probability results the same as the existence of the electron. The evidence >http://twm.co.nz/teleg_PK.htm
http://twm.co.nz/conscuniv.htm

 

[Rader]

Originally posted by Mentat
Nothing is provable beyond probability, especially not in Science. QM dictates that all things happen as a function of expressed probabilities. Aside from this, the very Method of Science is an Inductive one, and can only attain Inductive validity...which is not equal to "truth".

I agree and the reasoning behind it is that knowledge changes, or rather our scientific conclusion of it changes. Yes again, inductive validity is only proofs for the moment. The wave function of knowledge changes over time, that's why nothing is a absolute "truth"

BS. There's no way this could have been "proven", for the following reasons:

1) It would have created a "shockwave" throughout the scientific and philosophical community that would have put an end to AI research, and would never have allowed Dennett and LeDoux to write their books.

2) Nothing is ever "proven", in science.

1) "Shockwave" You mean like when Copernicus told the world the sun is the center of our the solar system. The Catholic Church agreed 500 hundred years later, it was so. Not that there approval made it so but though many scientific probabilty studies, then did they accept it, as do you and I. For every book written there is a opposite opinion.

2)Parden me my deepest apologies. Proven was a slip of the tongue though my own falt. Probably based on probability results, is the correct word as proofs there are none. They say English is the most precise language to express thought, i still find it clumbsy and insuficient to express what we think is reality.

Irrelevant (no offense); we are not to follow the example of previous skeptics, except in their skill at practicing skepticism.

Why, we accept, or at least listen to, the professionals on this website, as being expert in there fields. Is there input irellavent?

Because there are no discreet units of "thought" (read the book, man). Besides, thought occurs in brains, which are composed of neurons, which are way too big to be distinguished from a rock at the subatomic level.

I will read the book, it is ordered. At anyrate i am interested in one mans opinion as the other, especially if it is not mine. This is why i post. I would hope that the book has lots of scientific probabilty tests.

Who are they?

They were scientific professionals, who tried to find objective evidence if consciousness is, and acts, also outside of biological systems, through probabilty proofs, just the same way that anything is finally accepted, through a book Explaining the unexplained 1982. It includes Walkers theory > http://users.erols.com/wcri/CONSCIOUSNESS.html and a lot of non-partial information, trying to come to a difficult question to answer. I would hope that it is read not to convince anybody of anything but to put forth a very scientific explanation of this thread.

 

[Sariaht]

Life is communicating bacterias in a vassel among other things.

 

[sage]

to radar. impressive link. shows how quantum effects can exist in synaptic transmissions and hence in the development of consciousness.but still the explanation is completely physical . the fact that brain uses quantum effects is hardly surprising as we know that exploitation of quantum phenomenon can greatly increase the effeciency of computers and our brain is nothing but the most powerful parallel processor ever built. but no matter how sophisticated the technology(whether silicon based or carbon based) all processors are still turing machines in essence and rely on algorithms for information processing.nothing metaphysical about this.