What do you think will be the fate of the universe?

  • Thread starter Gold Barz
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  • #26
Chronos
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Prometheus said:
...and it seems that you have no more firsthand experience with the observed evidence than I...
brb, I just sprayed soda all over my monitor.
 
  • #27
turbo
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Chronos said:
brb, I just sprayed soda all over my monitor.
I think I'm going to save this whole thread to re-read when I get in a WWWF mood.
 
  • #28
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yeah, what a battle by Prometheus and Nereid

what me and Prometheus is trying to say (or at least what im trying to say) is that how can you rule out a reasonable possibility when we know so little about this, we are litterally in the dark, we are on this little rock studying how light bounces off some stuff
 
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  • #29
Chronos
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Pardon the interruption. A cyclic universe has an appealing feeling. It is both anthropic and philosophically consistent [albeit, this is my first encounter with the mammothropic principle]. Scientists and philosophers have always been drawn to symmetry. But, evidence is evidence. And evidence is on the side that the universe is a one shot deal. It came in with a bang and goes out with a whimper. Nobody is terribly happy with that result. That is one reason we keep looking.

DANGER
Abstract: The pocket protector efficaciously inhibits humanoid respiratory absorption of particulate and gaseous emissions of writing devices at neo-macroscopic distances.
 
  • #30
Nereid
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Gold Barz said:
yeah, what a battle by Prometheus and Nereid

what me and Prometheus is trying to say (or at least what im trying to say) is that how can you rule out a reasonable possibility when we know so little about this, we are litterally in the dark, we are on this little rock studying how light bounces off some stuff
Well of course all kinds of possibilities can't be 'ruled out'! :smile:

However, if we are going to have a scientific discussion, I'm sure you'd agree that we need to follow a scientific approach, yes? (and if we want to continue in a philosophic vein, let's discuss over in Philosophy, not here in Astronomy).

So, can you tell us about a 'cyclic universe' idea, one which is consistent with the observational and experimental results? Then we can discuss the merits of this idea, from the perspective of its consistency; if we do that, there will PF members who will make the point that the concordance model has a lot going for it, including some detailed quantitative predictions which have been tested and which will continue to be tested.
 
  • #31
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Nereid, I just have to say that you are my new hero. Do you do this professionally, or just on newgroups?
 
  • #32
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the fate of the universe should be the same as any other natural thing: it will be adapted into a technological resource wholly or partially controlled by intelligence- and it's structure and evolution will be fundementally redefined long before any natural crunch/rip/heat-death occurs-

I say this because it is simply not possible to speculate on the future evolution of a universe where intelligence exists without considering the possible global effects of intelligence-

this makes speculation quite untenable- so the question cannot really be considered- but I feel that the popular presumption that intelligence is just "along for the ride" and can have no important impact on cosmic evolution is wrong-headed
 
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  • #34
Nereid
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Prometheus said:
First of all, who is saying that the entire body of evidence is this one mammal? You have already brought up the idea that certain religious groups have their own body of evidence. Why stop at these two examples? How do you know that I have no other examples?
I don't, and stand corrected ... do you have other examples?
What do we know? We know about nature here on earth. You are supposing that nature is composed of numerous types of complexity, and that one type should not be used as evidence to enable understanding of other types. I consider that you are the one who is stretching the evidence thin.
This seems to illustrate well a difference of approach - I do not rule out anything, I merely insist that we stick to the approach commonly called 'the scientific method' (at least, while we are having a discussion in a science section of PF). Earlier you suggested that you would post a protocol for this discussion; I'm open to that (but will insist that it be one which is consistent with the scientific method).
If we might agree on the cyclic nature of several facts of earth, all of which the observational evidence allows us to examine in great detail, then perhaps we might recognize the value of expanding it to include extra-terrestrial concepts.
Indeed we might ... and a good way to proceed would be for you (or a Buddhist, or GoldBarz, or anyone) to propose a 'theory of cycles' (or something like that), from which predictions can be made, and which we can go test ... in the lab or through observations.

Of course, to be useful, as science, it would be highly desirable for this 'theory of cycles' to give quantitative predictions, and for it to be fully consistent with the best science we have today ... such as GR, QM, modern theories of evolution, ...
You talk about hand-waving similarity of our species of mammal. Yet, how do you know about the universe? Through the mind of this very mammal. You would divorce your ideas from the organism that enables such ideas to exist.
Hmm, I don't understand this; are you making a philosophical point about the primacy of consciousness? Perhaps you would consider joining this excellent philosophical discussion (elsewhere in PF)!
 
  • #35
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What do you guys think of other Pockets Of Space/Time existing outside of ours? the possibility? probability?
 
  • #36
Chronos
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Gold Barz said:
What do you guys think of other Pockets Of Space/Time existing outside of ours? the possibility? probability?
They are irrelevant.
 
  • #37
Nereid
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Gold Barz said:
What do you guys think of other Pockets Of Space/Time existing outside of ours? the possibility? probability?
If you can describe how such things could be observed, even if only from their indirect footprints, even if only in principle, then we might be able to have a good discussion of this, here in GA&C. Otherwise, how would you distinguish ideas such as these from fact-free speculation?
 
  • #38
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thats true they are irrelivant i just wanted to see how many of you believe that they exist
 
  • #39
Chronos
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Irrelevant = they do not exist in the language of physics. The probability of them not existing is 100%.
 
  • #40
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well thats true, so the probability of them existing is what percentage? 50%? 100%?because were living in one

hey could it be that the universe goes through phases, like right now were just in a transition to another form or something of that idea?
 
  • #41
turbo
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Gold Barz said:
well thats true, so the probability of them existing is what percentage? 50%? 100%?because were living in one

hey could it be that the universe goes through phases, like right now were just in a transition to another form or something of that idea?
Here is an old paper by Lee Smolin in which he turned the anthropic principle on its head and speculated that all the unitless constants in our Universe are at their current values to maximize the production of black holes, which in turn become isolated universes. This paper will make your head hurt!

http://xxx.lanl.gov/abs/gr-qc/9404011
 
  • #42
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isolated universes? do the author mean like a bubble universe?
 
  • #43
turbo
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Gold Barz said:
isolated universes? do the author mean like a bubble universe?
Just read the paper and you'll see... He said not only that black holes are separated from our universe by their event horizons (pretty non-controversial), but that the inhabitants of such black hole universes will look out around themselves and find themselves looking back in time to a singularity, just like we do. Hum.....
 
  • #44
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cool, i am going to read it tomorrow
 

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