News What does American mean to you?

[Astronuc]

Suit to Charge That Nursery Mistreated Laborers

Marvin Coto and 11 other Guatemalan men had legal work visas to enter the country to work in a program authorized by the federal government.

The 12 men were recruited in Guatemala and granted legal work visas to plant pine trees in North Carolina.

but

when they landed in Greensboro last spring, eager to work for promised wages of $7.50 an hour, a very different fate awaited them.

According to a lawsuit to be filed today in Federal District Court in Hartford by four Yale law students and their professors, the bewildered Guatemalans were packed into a van, driven to Connecticut and turned into a captive labor force for Imperial Nurseries, one of the nation’s major wholesalers of plants and shrubs.

The lawsuit charges that agents of Imperial Nurseries confiscated the men’s passports to prevent their escape, forced them to work nearly 80 hours a week for far less than minimum wage, denied them emergency medical care and threatened them with jail and deportation if they complained.

The lawsuit is among the first to seek civil damages under a 2003 provision of the federal laws against human trafficking, which added a right for victims to sue for compensation.

Monte B. Lake, a lawyer representing Imperial Nurseries and its publicly traded corporate parent company, Griffin Land and Nurseries, said in an e-mailed statement that although neither he nor the company had seen the complaint, “we are confident that the allegations will be found to be without merit, as against Griffin and its subsidiary.”

He added, “We expect the allegations to relate to the conduct of an independent farm labor contractor which was responsible for compensating its employees.”

The Yale law students, who were contacted through a Pentecostal church where one of the workers sought help, said Imperial Nurseries and its labor subcontractor, Pro Tree Forestry Services, were equally responsible for exploiting and defrauding the Guatemalans. Nor, they said, was it an isolated case.

From my experience, it is certainly not an isolated case.

 

[Anttech]

I'm basing it on this. I did not base my view of the national average by visiting the capital.
http://www.worldfactsandfigures.com/gdp_country_desc.php

I would suggest you don't base your facts on that :)

An ethinic group (Irish American) may or may not be equal to the national average. On top of that its from 2003, and is GDP which is an average national product, we all know that in America there is a huge gap between the rich and poor. So your figures are totally meanless in this context. So think as you may...

I think this also adds weight behind my suggestion of not basing your assumption on that "chart" (taken from your link)

** GDP dollar estimates for all countries are derived from purchasing power parity (PPP) calculations rather than from conversions at official currency exchange rates. The PPP method involves the use of standardized international dollar price weights, which are applied to the quantities of final goods and services produced in a given economy. The data derived from the PPP method provide the best available starting point for comparisons of economic strength and well-being between countries. The division of a GDP estimate in domestic currency by the corresponding PPP estimate in dollars gives the PPP conversion rate. Whereas PPP estimates for OECD countries are quite reliable, PPP estimates for developing countries are often rough approximations. Most of the GDP estimates are based on extrapolation of PPP numbers published by the UN International Comparison Program (UNICP) and by Professors Robert Summers and Alan Heston of the University of Pennsylvania and their colleagues. In contrast, the currency exchange rate method involves a variety of international and domestic financial forces that often have little relation to domestic output. In developing countries with weak currencies the exchange rate estimate of GDP in dollars is typically one-fourth to one-half the PPP estimate. Furthermore, exchange rates may suddenly go up or down by 10% or more because of market forces or official fiat whereas real output has remained unchanged. On 12 January 1994, for example, the 14 countries of the African Financial Community (whose currencies are tied to the French franc) devalued their currencies by 50%. This move, of course, did not cut the real output of these countries by half. One important caution: the proportion of, say, defense expenditures as a percentage of GDP in local currency accounts may differ substantially from the proportion when GDP accounts are expressed in PPP terms, as, for example, when an observer tries to estimate the dollar level of Russian or Japanese military expenditures. Note: the numbers for GDP and other economic data can not be chained together from successive volumes of the Factbook because of changes in the US dollar measuring rod, revisions of data by statistical agencies, use of new or different sources of information, and changes in national statistical methods and practices.

 

[Jimmy Snyder]

An ethinic group (Irish American) may or may not be equal to the national average. On top of that its from 2003, and is GDP which is an average national product, we all know that in America there is a huge gap between the rich and poor.

You're reaching here.

 

[Anttech]

You're reaching here.

On the contrary, you are reaching. You are tryin to assert that an average Irish American is more weathy than an average Irishman. That is reaching, you have absolutely no proof of that! GDP is meaningless. Ireland is very wealthy, hell even by your own www sites admission it disregards the exchange rate. You stated your opinion without knowing enough about the economy of Ireland.

So who is reaching?

 

[denverdoc]

It seems that the US is a nation where immigrants can rise quite high on the social ladder. Many years ago, we had some B-film "Mr muscle" actor, and now he's a governor over there

Oh that guy. Whose family was very wealthy, IIRC. Actually I now have begrudging respect for the big Republican. And if history is any indicator, has a shot at being a two-timer White House occupant.

Speaking of which, how's the Hulk these days? And what is it with these musclemen anyway. Let's get some babes into office! No neither Hillary, Barbara, or Nancy qualify. I want someone like Paris.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

And if history is any indicator, has a shot at being a two-timer White House occupant.

I would hope that even today we haven't sunk so low that we would change the Constitution just to get one man elected, no matter how wonderful he might be.

Sen Hatch would, but there you go. Know the enemy.

Ideally, if this did happen the electoral college would do its job and reject the popular vote.

 

[Gokul43201]

Could you give an example?

Okay, I have $0 and you have $0. Instead of sleeping all day, I walk down the lane, pick up a rock, and carve it into a statuette of "little green man". I sell you the statuette for $10. Now I have $10, and you have an asset worth $10. Total wealth to the amount of $20 has been created from a rock.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

Where did I get the $10 to pay you? And the little man has no real value until someone pays me.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

I had considered the idea of wealth created by digging for gold, but that is a matter of converting wealth from a resource to cash, so the wealth still isn't created, but the gold has value added by the work. It would be worth less in a land sale.

 

[grant9076]

You equally could have migrated to any Developed country and done the exact same thing.

That is simply not true. In Europe (and most other places), the prohibitively high up front costs and the lack of financial aid would have it made much more difficult (if not impossible) for me to get the training necessary to become a professional pilot. In addition, the very high taxes would make it extremely difficult for anyone who wants to start a business.

It is not the *land of oppertunity* it once was.

Companies like Microsoft, Macintosh, Dell, Scaled Composites, Cliff Bar, and Nantucket Nectars were all started in sombody's basement or garage, dormitory or kitchen, or even from the back of someone's van. These are just a few of countless examples where a diligent person has the opportunity develop great things from a good idea. These are all compelling examples that are quite contrary to your assertion. Frankly, I would not be surprised if I found out that PF was started by a student or teacher with a good idea.

Regardless Success is not measured by your bank ballance, and to think so, is as shallow as an environment which nurtures that ideal, IMHO

I don't measure my success by money either. I wanted to travel and see the world and I am still in the process of doing so. However, with regards to those who measure success by their bank balance, this country provides an opportunity for them too. That is what make this country great.

I am presuming that you came here legally, and that is the crux of the alien situation, most of them do not.

Yes. I did come here legally and it was a lengthy process (understandably so) to get a permanent visa. The truth is that any country has a right to screen who gets in. Those of us who came to the USA legally find it hard to sympathize with someone who does it illegally and then protest as if America owes him/her something.

 

[Astronuc]

Frankly, I would not be surprised if I found out that PF was started by a student

It was. Actually, it was a great idea.

 

[edward]

Where did I get the $10 to pay you? And the little man has no real value until someone pays me.

You used a credit card and by the time it is paid off 20 years from now the little green man will have cost $15.

 

[Gokul43201]

Where did I get the $10 to pay you? And the little man has no real value until someone pays me.

He he...I must have dozed off midway through that post...and the department's pet possum finished the post for me.

But I insist the little man has value. It serves a purpose, and in that capacity it is worth money. If you do not count an asset as wealth, then you can throw out stocks, T-bills, and heavens... even IOUs!

 

[grant9076]

Actually, it was a great idea.

I stand corrected.

 

[Anttech]

That is simply not true. In Europe (and most other places), the prohibitively high up front costs and the lack of financial aid would have it made much more difficult (if not impossible) for me to get the training necessary to become a professional pilot. In addition, the very high taxes would make it extremely difficult for anyone who wants to start a business.

FUD... Absolutly nonsense. Yes the taxes are higher here, but there is no upfront costs to starting your own business. I should know, I have my own in 2 different countries here. As for lack of financial aid, you know we also do have banks here too, with rather good Loans. London is actually the Financial Hub of the World, with the likes of HSBC CITIGROUP BARCLAYS having the HQ there. Are you suggesting that in America you get free handouts to get started or something? Very anti-capitalist wouldn't you say?

Companies like Microsoft, Macintosh, Dell, Scaled Composites, Cliff Bar, and Nantucket Nectars were all started in somebody’s basement or garage, dormitory or kitchen, or even from the back of someone's van. These are just a few of countless examples where a diligent person has the opportunity develop great things from a good idea. These are all compelling examples that are quite contrary to your assertion. Frankly, I would not be surprised if I found out that PF was started by a student or teacher with a good idea.

I have not heard of Composites, Cliff Bar, and Nantucket Nectars. But I can talk about M$ Dell and Apple if you like. M$ wasnt started in a basement a simple look at wikipedia would tell you that. Regardless it was founded around 1978, almost 30 years ago, I am talking current not some history lesson of America. Apple was founded in someones basement over 30 years ago, by Steve Jobs, who is a business genius.

Look if you want a history lesson, I could go through all the things that *we* invented, and the successful companies that *we* have. Do I need to, do you really want to go tick for tack?

You have misconception of Europe, as so many Americans do.

 

[vanesch]

Oh that guy. Whose family was very wealthy, IIRC.

No, who MARRIED into a very wealthy family

Actually I now have begrudging respect for the big Republican. And if history is any indicator, has a shot at being a two-timer White House occupant.

But honestly, I respect him too (I'm actually quite surprised by his good performance as a gouvernor, in as far as I understand things).

I was only slightly ironic when I took him as an example. I do think that the US is indeed a country where, if one is made out of the right material, with enough guts and all it takes, one can reach the sky. This is slightly harder in Europe, where traditions and so on are more important and such big social jumps are made harder.

Lets get some babes into office! No neither Hillary, Barbara, or Nancy qualify. I want someone like Paris.

Well, Germany got his "babe", and with some bad luck, France will so too.
Long ago, the UK got their iron "babe" too

In fact, in France, the choice will be between an "immigrant" (Sarkozy) and a "babe" (Royal) in a few months. Unless that old Le Pen gets his nose into the business again.

 

[J77]

Quantity over quality?

 

[Anttech]

Iron *Babe*?? You have a warped sense of humour

 

[J77]

Iron *Babe*?? You have a warped sense of humour

Yeah - I've heard it called a lot of things but babe ain't one!

<profanities reserved for other bbs>

 

[denverdoc]

FUD...
I have not heard of Composites, Cliff Bar, and Nantucket Nectars. But I can talkreally want to go tick for tack?

You have misconception of Europe, as so many Americans do.

Scaled Composites is Burt Rattans aircraft company which uses a lot of composite materials. I believe that it was bit more than starting in a garage, as well, but a great example of the right guy with the right idea at the right time--who most importanyly had a helluva lot experience in the field. Now Blockbuster Video is likely along those lines.

 

[Anttech]

Okay, I have $0 and you have $0. Instead of sleeping all day, I walk down the lane, pick up a rock, and carve it into a statuette of "little green man". I sell you the statuette for $10. Now I have $10, and you have an asset worth $10. Total wealth to the amount of $20 has been created from a rock.

what about markup costs... If only ecconomics was this easy

 

[verdigris]

poverty,junk food and cheap fuel

Being American means living in fear that one day you will be desperately poor and if you are already poor that you will become even worse off.Being American means - and it has done for thirty years now - that if terrorists hijack an airplane then they are going to look for US passports first.
But on the positive side you get cheap fuel and can leave your car engines switched on while you are in a shop thus maximising the damage you are doing to the lungs of all your critics in other countries - particularly if you live somewhere near the coast.I'm not American but I love fast food,US television
and most of the stuff that intellectuals label as garbage that comes from the States.Iwould happily become an American citizen and may well do so when
I get to the age where I don't care if nobody takes me seriously.

 

[BobG]

Being American means living in fear that one day you will be desperately poor and if you are already poor that you will become even worse off.

Being human means living in fear that one day there'll be a drought that wipes out your food supply, that one day a hurricane or tsunami will wipe out your home, that one day you'll die.

Some people are willing to give up a lot of the good things about being human in an attempt to eliminate the risk of living. Some people aren't.

Being an American has traditionally meant a more grown-up view of taking responsibility for yourself, including accepting some of the risks that go along with living. You reduce risk by sticking together in a group and looking out for one another. That might not be quite so true nowadays. People are more willing to give up anything for the childlike security of having someone else take care of them.

 

[denverdoc]

what about markup costs... If only ecconomics was this easy

gokul, (sorry for the indirect index)

actually if you're interested I have a very special collection of pet rocks--now the gal who sold them to my parents, that they might not get along, oddly enough I haven't heard a peep from em in 25 years. Seriously because someone paid x $ is in no way a measure of value. Every w/e I drive past a panhandler with a sign that says "need money for alcohol research", amused I oce stopped and chatted with the guy. Makes on average 75 $/day. Should we franchise his sign?

 

[Gokul43201]

I had considered the idea of wealth created by digging for gold, but that is a matter of converting wealth from a resource to cash, so the wealth still isn't created, but the gold has value added by the work. It would be worth less in a land sale.

Digging for gold is certainly considered wealth creation, by the standard definition. An untapped resource is not considered existing wealth. Or are you going to include He3 on the Moon, and hydrogen on Jupiter, and dilithium in planet 0-sigma as part of our wealth?

what about markup costs... If only ecconomics was this easy

I'm not sure what your point is but what I provided was a simplification. Besides, there was clearly an error in the calculation, correcting which the wealth created is actually $10. Including markups does not change this to $0.

gokul, (sorry for the indirect index)

actually if you're interested I have a very special collection of pet rocks--now the gal who sold them to my parents, that they might not get along, oddly enough I haven't heard a peep from em in 25 years. Seriously because someone paid x $ is in no way a measure of value. Every w/e I drive past a panhandler with a sign that says "need money for alcohol research", amused I oce stopped and chatted with the guy. Makes on average 75 $/day. Should we franchise his sign?

Either I'm misunderstanding your post, or you've misunderstood mine. If you don't like stone statuettes, pick something else as the product made.

I can't believe you folks are actually seriously advocating that total wealth is a zero sum game! I thought Adam Smith debunked that myth over 2 centuries ago. The world GDP has increased by at least an order of magnitude over this last century.

PS: This is all really a digression from the thread topic, so I'm stopping here. If it turns out that I'm talking total nonsense, and there really is more to this zero-sum argument, then perhaps the relevant posts could be herded intoa different thread?

 

[grant9076]

FUD... Absolutly nonsense. Yes the taxes are higher here, but there is no upfront costs to starting your own business. I should know, I have my own in 2 different countries here. As for lack of financial aid, you know we also do have banks here too, with rather good Loans. London is actually the Financial Hub of the World, with the likes of HSBC CITIGROUP BARCLAYS having the HQ there. Are you suggesting that in America you get free handouts to get started or something? Very anti-capitalist wouldn't you say?
I have not heard of Composites, Cliff Bar, and Nantucket Nectars. But I can talk about M$ Dell and Apple if you like. M$ wasnt started in a basement a simple look at wikipedia would tell you that. Regardless it was founded around 1978, almost 30 years ago, I am talking current not some history lesson of America. Apple was founded in someones basement over 30 years ago, by Steve Jobs, who is a business genius.

Look if you want a history lesson, I could go through all the things that *we* invented, and the successful companies that *we* have. Do I need to, do you really want to go tick for tack?

You have misconception of Europe, as so many Americans do.

Actually, the upfront costs that I mentioned were in reference to pilot training. Which brings the question:

Do you have any idea how much it costs to produce a properly trained instrument rated jet pilot?

Also, are you saying or even suggesting that there have been no successful business startups in the USA in the past 30 years?

In addition, I have had the opportunity to travel all over western Europe for many years (including the 3 years that I have actually lived there) and have had the opportunity to interact closely with thousands of professional pilots in both the military and civilian sectors. Now if you are so willing to give history lessons, then perhaps there is something that you can explain:

Why is there a greater diversity of national and ethnic origins represented among the American pilots than among pilots from all of the European countries that I have seen combined (especially when you consider the ethnic diversity in the European population)?

Why is this diversity among the American pilots reflected in pilots that were trained recently if all opportunities ended 30 years ago?

Why were so many of the Europeans so shocked when they found out that I did not have rich parents?

If Europe is so much more socially advanced and full of opportunities than the USA, then the opposite should be true. Should it not?

 

[denverdoc]

Digging for gold is certainly considered wealth creation, by the standard definition. An untapped resource is not considered existing wealth. Or are you going to include He3 on the Moon, and hydrogen on Jupiter, and dilithium in planet 0-sigma as part of our wealth?

I'm not sure what your point is but what I provided was a simplification. Besides, there was clearly an error in the calculation, correcting which the wealth created is actually $10. Including markups does not change this to $0.

Either I'm misunderstanding your post, or you've misunderstood mine. If you don't like stone statuettes, pick something else as the product made.

I can't believe you folks are actually seriously advocating that total wealth is a zero sum game! I thought Adam Smith debunked that myth over 2 centuries ago. The world GDP has increased by at least an order of magnitude over this last century.

PS: This is all really a digression from the thread topic, so I'm stopping here. If it turns out that I'm talking total nonsense, and there really is more to this zero-sum argument, then perhaps the relevant posts could be herded intoa different thread?

I'll stop here, as well. I don't know that its a zero sum game, but I think the sum depends on the reference frame. It is easy to take a narrow view, much more difficult to expand the reference frame not only with respect to breadth of geometry but into the future. Someone mentioned Gold, well mining using extant technology has devastated a number of ecosystems with very little payback for the locals involved.

So maybe its more akin to thermodynamics, where its easy to have virtual perpetual motion within one system at the "expense" of another. But the big picture forbids it. Again not stating this as a certainty, just that impact on future generations and other countries be included in any eqn.

 

[grant9076]

So maybe its more akin to thermodynamics, where its easy to have virtual perpetual motion within one system at the "expense" of another. But the big picture forbids it. Again not stating this as a certainty, just that impact on future generations and other countries be included in any eqn.

That definitely makes sense in a closed system. However, the Earth is not truly a closed system because we get energy from an outside source (the sun). When farmers harvest crops, they are essentially harvesting energy from the sun which is used to feed people and the economy. So wealth is being created within our system. Conversely, wealth can be destroyed by things such as crimes, wars, natural disasters, etc. So there is a valid point in saying that it is not entirely a zero sum game.

 

[Loren Booda]

For non-Americans:

If offered American citizenship, would you take it?

If you can't trust Americans, what foreign power do you put your trust in?

For Americans:

Do you think we offer opportunity without substance?

What responsibilities to the world does one have as an American citizen?

 

[Moridin]

For non-Americans:

If offered American citizenship, would you take it?

If you can't trust Americans, what foreign power do you put your trust in?

For Americans:

Do you think we offer opportunity without substance?

What responsibilities to the world does one have as an American citizen?

Yes, I would accept an American citizenship if I were to live there, because despite the current administration, the US still holds on as the worlds only scientific superpower.

I put my trust into countries with a democracy defined by several sources such as the UN or CIA.

 

[Anttech]

For non-Americans:

If offered American citizenship, would you take it?

If you can't trust Americans, what foreign power do you put your trust in?

Nope I wouldn't take it, I am happy where I live.

Honestly why should I need to trust a foreign power? I live in a secure enough country and region to not need to mull over my security having to be handled by a foreign power. Which foreign power would you trust?

 

[radou]

For non-Americans:

If offered American citizenship, would you take it?

I'd have to thoroughly thing about it, but if I got an interesting job opportunity, why not?

Although I'd say the same as Anntech, I'm perfectly happy where I live right now and don't exactly feel and urge to go somewhere else.

 

[Anttech]

Actually, the upfront costs that I mentioned were in reference to pilot training. Which brings the question:

Do you have any idea how much it costs to produce a properly trained instrument rated jet pilot?

Nope, but it is irrelevant to what you are asserting

Also, are you saying or even suggesting that there have been no successful business startups in the USA in the past 30 years?

ermm no, you are suggesting that the *only* place on this Earth where you could have done what you have done is in the USA, I am suggesting this is total nonsense.

In addition, I have had the opportunity to travel all over western Europe for many years (including the 3 years that I have actually lived there) and have had the opportunity to interact closely with thousands of professional pilots in both the military and civilian sectors. Now if you are so willing to give history lessons, then perhaps there is something that you can explain:

Why is there a greater diversity of national and ethnic origins represented among the American pilots than among pilots from all of the European countries that I have seen combined (especially when you consider the ethnic diversity in the European population)?

You seem to be speculating without any data to back it up:

Europe is probably (definetly?) less ethnically dense that America, so it wouldn't surprise me. I also would like to add, that in 3 years I doubt very much you could interact *closely* with thousands (meaning > 1000) of Pilots. You may have seen thousands but to interact closely?

Why is this diversity among the American pilots reflected in pilots that were trained recently if all opportunities ended 30 years ago?

I never said that, you are the one suggesting that you couldn't become a piolt, or start a business in Europe due to the massive tax burden, and start up costs. I am saying you are talking rubbish. I am not suggesting that all opportunities in the USA stopped 30 years ago. However the economy is not so strong in comparisons to other nations now as it was.

Why were so many of the Europeans so shocked when they found out that I did not have rich parents?

No idea. I know lots of contractor pilots here without rich parents, most of them are ex-military, and work for DHL and the likes. Not a big deal, perhaps it was the people you were *hanging out* with?

If Europe is so much more socially advanced and full of opportunities than the USA, then the opposite should be true. Should it not?

Point to me where I was saying Europe was so much more socially advanced, and we can talk about that. But I never did, I was countering your argument and spreading of misinformation regarding Europe.

 

[Jimmy Snyder]

Do you think we offer opportunity without substance?

I think America offers opportunity. Substance is your own lookout.

What responsibilities to the world does one have as an American citizen?

That's not an easy question. Surely, as Martin Luther King said, we should rise up and live out the true meaning of our creed: "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal."

 

[grant9076]

You seem to be speculating without any data to back it up:

Europe is probably (definetly?) less ethnically dense that America, so it wouldn't surprise me. I also would like to add, that in 3 years I doubt very much you could interact *closely* with thousands (meaning > 1000) of Pilots. You may have seen thousands but to interact closely?

To begin with, I define close interaction as an encounter where you can speak face to face.


I am afraid that your doubt here is based on gross ignorance on your part and here is why:

For up to 6 years prior to living in Europe, I have been traveling there as a military pilot to take part in numerous multinational exercises where I often spend months at a time at bases in the United Kindom, France, Italy, and Germany. During any exercise or operation, a great deal of face to face planning occurs. When I lived in Europe, I was a staff instructor and was involved in the planning and flying in many other multinational exercises as well as real operations such as Operation Allied Force. Also, there were the numerous large airshows in which I have participated or attended along with the large social events attended by the pilots from many different countries. None of this includes the 8+ years since I have lived in Europe (but able to still travel to there) or any of my experience outside of Europe. Basically, in my 17+ years as a professional pilot, I have had the opportunity to interact closely with thousands of pilots.

As far as the demographics are concerned, I am sure that there must be some diversity in the European Air Forces. However, after meeting with military pilots from United Kingdom, Netherlands, Italy, Norway, France, Germany, Belgium, Spain, Denmark and Greece, just about every single European military pilot that I have met is male caucasian. Also, after having traveled to London, Cambridge, Oslo, Stavanger, Amsterdam, Marseille, Paris, Vicenza, Udine, and many other cities in Europe, it is clear that it does not represent the demographics of the population. Also, I have only met 2 professional women pilots (although I am sure that there are more than that) from Europe and we have much more than that in an average American flying squadron or airline base. In addition, the only European pilot I have met that was not Caucasian, was an Englishman who is a naturalized American citizen and was flying for the US Air Force.

Now, If Europe presents more opportunities than the USA (as you seem to suggest), then my observations should be quite the opposite. Should they not?

 

[Anttech]

I am afraid that your doubt here is based on gross ignorance on your part and here is why

My doubts are based on ignorance, however the cause of my ignorance is your gross incapability to clearly community

Basically, in my 17+ years as a professional pilot, I have had the opportunity to interact closely with thousands of pilots.

Glad to clear that up. You did indeed infer that in 3 years you had interacted closely with 1000's of European Pilots. 17+ years seems more plausible

As far as the demographics are concerned, I am sure that there must be some diversity in the European Air Forces. However, after meeting with military pilots from United Kingdom, Netherlands, Italy, Norway, France, Germany, Belgium, Spain, Denmark and Greece, just about every single European military pilot that I have met is male caucasian. Also, after having traveled to London, Cambridge, Oslo, Stavanger, Amsterdam, Marseille, Paris, Vicenza, Udine, and many other cities in Europe, it is clear that it does not represent the demographics of the population.

although your life story is indeed an interesting one, why not base this argument on some facts. Perhaps a look on the MOD ww sites would be a good idea?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_the_United_Kingdom
White 92.1% (54.85 million people)
Asian or Asian British 4% (2.38 million people)
Black or Black British 2% (1.19 million people)
Mixed 1.2% (0.71 million people)
Chinese 0.4% (0.24 million people)
Other 0.3% (0.18 million people)
From the 2001 UK Census

So if 92% of all people in the UK are European caucasian then I would suggest that figure to be represented in the MOD. Which it is, and has to be by law. So if there are 100 people in a room at least 92 of them will be Caucasian. 4 of them will be asian 2 of them will be black, 1.2 of them will be mixed .4 of them will be chinese, and .3 of them will be *other*

The same goes for all those other country/Cities you say you have been to. Greece is a interesting one, as the population is >99% Greek so I doubt very very much you will find anything but white caucasian in the MOD there.

The UK is a typical European Country. The USA is far more Ethnically diverse, as it is a land of immigrants.

Now, If Europe presents more opportunities than the USA (as you seem to suggest), then my observations should be quite the opposite. Should they not?

Once again I never said that. I said that you could have done what you did in many other countries and not just America. Is that clear enough for you?

You seem to be inferring that Europe is a place full of Racist, are you?

 

[grant9076]

Correction: I was a pilot for 7 years before living in Europe and 7+ years after.

No. I do not think that Europe is racist and it would be as disingenuous as when people think that USA is evil. Besides, it would be unfair to the people that I befriended there.

More on this later due to lack of time...

 

[Anttech]

So you weren't a Pilot in Europe? You were a piolt before and after living in Europe?

No. I do not think that Europe is racist and it would be as disingenuous as when people think that USA is evil. Besides, it would be unfair to the people that I befriended there.

Yeah it would be, but who is saying the USA is evil?

Just to remind you:

"ehh, America America" *waves hands*

In Italy if you say that, it is like saying *Yeah right in your dreams* due to the fact once upon a time many many moons ago, America was the place everyone though was the land of opportunities, and new beginnings. That perception is been eroded away day by day

That is what I said.

You then went on to say:

I grew up dirt poor (all of my clothes were hand me downs) in a third world country and a typical third world family, and I came to the USA with not much more than the clothes on my back.

Now I am a professional pilot that has traveled all over the world.

One of my brothers is a real estate millionaire.

Another of my brothers has his own successful business.

A third brother is a software engineer.

My sister is a business executive with her degree from Cornell.

My nephew (who grew up in the same household) is an orthopedic surgeon.

I then said:

You equally could have migrated to any Developed country and done the exact same thing. The perception throught the developed world of America has changed over the years, now it is not looked at as a shining example of how a country should be run. It is not the *land of oppertunity* it once was. In fact I know in my industry (IT/Telecoms) you will get paid better in Europe than in the USA, for an equal skillset.

Regardless Success is not measured by your bank ballance, and to think so, is as shallow as an environment which nurtures that ideal, IMHO

Now, can you or can't you handle some critisim? Just because I am criticizing your country doesn't mean I think you are all evil, does it now?

Two people on this thread, and you are included seem so arrogant of your own country you find it hard to believe that other places are equally as nice, and as prosperous as your country. You can't believe that your story could have come from the lips of a Jamaican 1st generation City Merchant Banker in London for example. And the other person seems to think, Ireland is some sort of poor country like it was 50 years ago. Both are false and both to me wreak of preprogrammed misconceptions.

 

[marlon]

Jimmy, who hates us? Its my experience americans (except in maybe France) are generally pretty well thought of around the world.

That's a joke right ? If not, i would suggest to open your eyes and look beyond your nation's borders.

marlon

 

[Panda]

Two people on this thread, and you are included seem so arrogant of your own country you find it hard to believe that other places are equally as nice, and as prosperous as your country. You can't believe that your story could have come from the lips of a Jamaican 1st generation City Merchant Banker in London for example. And the other person seems to think, Ireland is some sort of poor country like it was 50 years ago. Both are false and both to me wreak of preprogrammed misconceptions.

Thats what I don't like about Americans.
If they actually tried to experience other countries and cultures they could learn a lot, but their arrogance prevents them from learning and they therefore make the same mistakes time and time again.
When traveling it is interesting to talk about different cultures and how the local people see them. There are a lot of cultural idiosyncrasies, but the Americans are always considered arrogant and afraid to experience anything new.
Just because some American did it doesn't make it right or better than what the rest of the world did.

 

[Azael]

For non-Americans:

If offered American citizenship, would you take it?

If you can't trust Americans, what foreign power do you put your trust in?

As a non-american...

I would probably not take a american citizenship. There is nothing I can do in america that I can't in sweden or the other EU countries. Someone mentioned that USA is the only science superpower. But what about CERN, ITER, The Max Planck Institutes, ESA ect...

I don't put my trust in any foreign power. Why should I??

About equal oppertunity, in sweden anyone(with good enough grades offcourse) can attend any university education without ever having to pay a dime and acctualy beeing paid to do so...

 

[Kurdt]

I would not take american citizenship as I have all the oppourtunity I need where I am.

Selfishness is what I think of when I see the word American. A desire to only progress American values and ideals at seemingly any cost. If the US operated a foreign policy of non-interference I suspect they would have a lot more respect throughout the world.

 

[denverdoc]

Thats what I don't like about Americans.
If they actually tried to experience other countries and cultures they could learn a lot, but their arrogance prevents them from learning and they therefore make the same mistakes time and time again.
When traveling it is interesting to talk about different cultures and how the local people see them. There are a lot of cultural idiosyncrasies, but the Americans are always considered arrogant and afraid to experience anything new.
Just because some American did it doesn't make it right or better than what the rest of the world did.

This notion of the "Ugly American" isn't new. I entirely agree with the sentiment above, that it depends on ones attitude while traveling--if one has to stay at the local plastic palace and eat at US franchises, all the while holding the local culture in disdain for being so well, "uncivilized"... Contempt prior to investigation at times seems like an American mantra.

OTOH, my mom with her great love of life and insatiable curiosity traveled well and made dozens of friends everywhere she went. She didn't have a great education, but always left more learned, than my dad, the scholar.

 

[Panda]

To be fair DenverDoc...
When I was last in Florence stuck in a really grotty hotel with broken Air-Con in the hottest August on record, there was an American woman there with two teenage sons who were very understanding about the fact that you couldn't get an Air-Con engineer in Europe during August. They were trying to learn the basics of Italian and ate in a different local restaurant. We had a really nice time chatting over breakfast...
...Compared to the really annoying American who was in my local pub being really loud and saying how quaint everything was but why was this 250 year old building so primative. She sadly was my Aunt who was born in the East End of London, but moved to Kansas 30 odd years ago.
So it seems that being "American" can be both Learnt and Unlearnt (Unless you come from Alabama of course then your a lost cause :-) )

 

[denverdoc]

In Utah, the term for unlearnt is "ignert," which is a synonym for rude as well. I had to bite my tongue the first few times I heard this idiom.

 

[SticksandStones]

What responsibilities to the world does one have as an American citizen?

The same responsibilities as every other human being on this planet.

 

[grant9076]

So you weren't a Pilot in Europe? You were a piolt before and after living in Europe?

Yeah it would be, but who is saying the USA is evil?

Just to remind you:

That is what I said.

You then went on to say:

I then said:


Now, can you or can't you handle some critisim? Just because I am criticizing your country doesn't mean I think you are all evil, does it now?

Two people on this thread, and you are included seem so arrogant of your own country you find it hard to believe that other places are equally as nice, and as prosperous as your country. You can't believe that your story could have come from the lips of a Jamaican 1st generation City Merchant Banker in London for example. And the other person seems to think, Ireland is some sort of poor country like it was 50 years ago. Both are false and both to me wreak of preprogrammed misconceptions.

With all due respect. I was a pilot for 7 years prior to living in Europe, 3 years while living in Europe, and 7+ years after. That is 17+ years total (please do the math). The correction was only for the periods before and after living in Europe.

What I observed was also pointed out to me by an RAF Pilot who was puzzled by the same observation. He did not think that his country is racist and neither do I. The only logical explanation that I can think of is that most countries (Whether in Europe or anywhere else) will give first priority (officially or unofficially) to people who are actually born there for certain positions. And frankly, I don't blame them for doing so. If you can come up with a better explanation for what I observed, then I am very interested in finding it out.

Needless to say, the USA did the following for me (and many others):

Extended an invitation for me to live there

A few years later, granted me citizenship

Accept me into one of the top military academies

Spent well in excess of $1,000,000 to ensure that I had some of the best possible pilot training available


Unless you can provide me with a better explanation for what I observed, I am not convinced that many countries (Europe or elsewhere) would be willing to do all of this for an immigrant. And I am not blaming them.


Oh, BTW, I never accused you or anyone else here of calling America evil.

 

[denverdoc]

I would not take american citizenship as I have all the oppourtunity I need where I am.

Selfishness is what I think of when I see the word American. A desire to only progress American values and ideals at seemingly any cost. If the US operated a foreign policy of non-interference I suspect they would have a lot more respect throughout the world.

I have to agree. It's our way or the highway. If it were only about peaceful self-governance and adherance to some least common denominator of human conduct, there would be no argument. America show us the way the world said, and in response, it became more about what can you do for us economically? We have shown support for everything from despotism to martial law, meanwhile freely overthrowing legitimate democracies wherever there is economic self-interest or its first derivative, strategic military advantage at grabs. Which can be defended strenuously, but don't be a hypocrite in the process.

Just an exercise, no need to buy into the assumptions or details:

George enters stage right. Says on TV, my fellow americans, we got a problem. This oil which brought this country to its present greatness is running out. We face two alternatives. We either exploit our advantage now--unopposed by any superpower and basically able to loot the world at small cost, or we wait for the stuff to hit the fan--by then it may well be a free for all, and the costs in american lives much higher--to say nothing of th real risk of hitting a trip wire for a nuclear war.

Or we dramatically reduce consumption and we all suffer severe privation? Even then we still need the stuff to feed us, and the economic consequences in the meantime, disastrous. American's I ask your support in voting for A.

 

[J77]

For non-Americans:

If offered American citizenship, would you take it?

No way!

In the front of my passport, it says something along the lines of the Queen wishing the holder have freedom to go where ever they want, unhindered - that's a high recommendation

 

[vanesch]

For non-Americans:

If offered American citizenship, would you take it?

I don't know, it would depend on the occasion. For instance, though I live for about 10 years in France, and could, if I wanted, acquire French nationality, I don't, for a very silly reason: if I do, I loose my original nationality (it's the law in my country), which I won't (for several reasons, one is rather cute: I get extra money because I'm working in a country which is not my native country ).

But if required for some or other opportunity, I wouldn't say no up front, it would depend on the situation.

If you can't trust Americans, what foreign power do you put your trust in?

My own