What Happens to Energy and Spacetime at a Black Hole's Event Horizon?

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the behavior of energy and spacetime at a black hole's event horizon, exploring concepts such as Hawking radiation, vacuum energy, dark energy, and the nature of spacetime flow. Participants examine the implications of these ideas within theoretical frameworks and mathematical interpretations.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Conceptual clarification
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • One participant expresses confusion about the concept of spacetime "flowing" into the singularity and questions how energy, including dark energy and Higgs fields, is preserved in this process.
  • Another participant suggests that the "space flow" metaphor may not be helpful for everyone and emphasizes that mathematical formulations are the ultimate authority on the subject.
  • A participant critiques the definition of a black hole as a place where space is falling faster than light, suggesting that terminology may be misleading and that it refers to mass/energy contributions rather than spacetime itself.
  • One participant points out that the flow model of spacetime as a fluid does not adequately address the complexities of vacuum energy, Hawking radiation, and other related concepts, although it may be useful for understanding small masses near a black hole.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants do not reach a consensus on the definitions and implications of spacetime flow and energy preservation at black holes. Multiple competing views and interpretations remain present throughout the discussion.

Contextual Notes

Limitations include the potential misinterpretation of metaphors used to describe complex phenomena, as well as the reliance on specific mathematical frameworks that may not encompass all aspects of the discussion.

_PJ_
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I thought I was following and understanding a lot of ideas about Black Holes until I revisited the concept of Spacetime 'flowing' within the Event Horizon and, assuming a singularity, disappearing.

Now, The Hawking Radiation can be encoded with the information patterns for MATTER (which is almost undoubtedly evaporated to energy on its way) according to the external observations of the "surface" effected by the Horizon itself - therefore, this information, momentum, mass/energy, and somehow, presumably, angular momentum all of which must be preserved can be.
HOWEVER,
What about the on-zero vacuum energies, Dark Energy and Higgs Fields etc. permeating spacetime? Surely these, as energy, must be preserved; but the rate at which spacetime is apparently "flowing" into the singularity exceeds celerity and so HUGE volumes of energetic potential* are ... what?

Also, where is the spacetime coming from? How can it flow (I appreciate the mathematics involved show this,but cannot reconcile this concept) again, with huge volumes apparently disappearing 'down the plughole' without there being a noticeable "reduction in spacetime" (Yes, I can see this sis something not easily measurable, but I hope you can see my point)
Certainly DE can be propagating spacetime but, not enough?
 
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The "space flow" is just a metaphor that some people find helpful in visualizing the behavior of a test particle in the neighborhood of a black hole. If it isn't helping you visualize what's going on... Don't use it.

The math is the final authority, and it does not say huge volumes of spacetime are being created somewhere and then disappearing down the drain.
 
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"The math is the final authority, and it does not say huge volumes of spacetime are being created somewhere and then disappearing down the drain."
Exactly - this is why I have difficulty with the definition given:
"I prefer a different definition. A black hole is a place where space is falling faster than light."

I can only assume that the terminology is poor, referring to mass/energy contributions to the field net energies as 'space', rather than space(time) itself when they state "space", such as:

"The picture of spacing falling into a black hole has a sound mathematical basis" which, interestingly is with reference to Gullstrand-Painlev€ which seems only to, as you mentioned, describe a conversion between interpretations of one distant observer and a local one in vicinity of a BH's Event Horizon.

http://jila.colorado.edu/~ajsh/insidebh/waterfall.html
 
That site is interestingly different from (and in some ways better than) many of the other math-free popular explanations around. There's nothing wrong with good popularizations as long as you're aware of their limitations.

Here the limitation is that the flow model, with spacetime as a fluid and matter as fish being swept along by the water doesn't work AT ALL as a starting point for thinking about vacuum energy, Hawking radiation, the Higgs field, dark energy and the other stuff you mention in the first post. It is a good way of thinking about the behavior of small masses moving in the vicinity of the black hole; if we limit ourselves to that problem the claim of being supported by G-P coordinates is reasonable.
 
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Thank you!
 

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