What is Quantum Statistical Mechanics?

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the concept of Quantum Statistical Mechanics (QSM), exploring its definitions, differences from Quantum Mechanics (QM) and non-relativistic Quantum Field Theory (NRQFT), and the implications of thermodynamic concepts such as temperature within these frameworks. Participants engage in a technical examination of the foundational principles and applications of QSM, including its treatment of mixed states and thermodynamic equilibrium.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Debate/contested
  • Mathematical reasoning

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants propose that QSM applies quantum mechanics to either individual particles or bulk matter, while others seek clarification on the distinctions between QSM and NRQFT.
  • It is noted that QSM introduces additional uncertainties compared to pure QM, particularly through the use of mixed states from the outset.
  • Some argue that thermodynamic concepts, such as temperature, are central to QSM, while others question the applicability of temperature in systems far from thermodynamic equilibrium.
  • There is a discussion on whether temperature can be defined in nonequilibrium thermodynamics, with some asserting that local temperature fields can exist, while others contend that temperature may not make sense in certain conditions.
  • Participants explore hypothetical scenarios, such as the density matrix of a system with differing inverse temperatures, leading to debates about the existence of temperature in such cases.
  • Some participants express differing views on the scope of QSM, with one suggesting a broader definition that includes hypothetical constructs like Boltzmann brains, while another emphasizes the importance of focusing on observable phenomena.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

The discussion reveals multiple competing views regarding the definitions and implications of QSM, particularly concerning the role of temperature and the nature of mixed states. No consensus is reached on several key points, including the applicability of temperature in nonequilibrium systems and the boundaries of what QSM encompasses.

Contextual Notes

Participants highlight limitations in the definitions and assumptions underlying their arguments, particularly regarding the treatment of mixed states and the conditions under which temperature is defined. The discussion also touches on the relevance of specific mathematical formulations and their applicability to real-world systems.

  • #31
Demystifier said:
I believe they prepare them all the time, but they just don't know it because the states are ... well, unobservable.
Hm, I still don't know, what you mean by "unobservable states". If a state is (in principal) unobservable, then it's not a state. So an "unobservable state" seems to be a constradictio in adjecto. The only thing, I'm aware of are superselection rules which forbid certain states, but that means that they simply do not exist (e.g., the charge superselection rules forbidding superpositions of states of different charge or the angular-momentum superselection rule forbidding superpositions of half-integer with integer angular momenta).
 
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  • #32
A. Neumaier said:
Whatever will be preparable any time in the future must be a state that comes from partial tracing of the state of a bigger system including its environment. Thus it is covered by my definition of the states that can appear in Nature. Whereas one cannot observe a state that doesn't occur in Nature, and one cannot prepare such a state.
Well, If I prepare a cup of coffee and leave it at rest a while on my desk, I don't trace anything but prepare a thermal-equilibrium state by just waiting long enough. That's an easy preparation without in any way tracing out anything.
 
  • #33
vanhees71 said:
Well, If I prepare a cup of coffee and leave it at rest a while on my desk, I don't trace anything but prepare a thermal-equilibrium state by just waiting long enough. That's an easy preparation without in any way tracing out anything.
To be able to say what you said you traced out the whole universe except for the coffee in the cup. For only that part is in equilibrium. If you wait longer, maybe the bigger system consisting of coffee, cup and desk will be in thermal equilibrium. But as long as you are in the room, the whole room will not be in equilibrium. Thus you need to trace out at least yourself. And the outside of the building your desk is in. And your computer if it is running...
 
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  • #34
Wow, I'm a very mighty being, being able to trace out the whole universe by cooking a cup of coffee ;-)), but when I come to thermal equilibrium with my environment, I'm dead. So I better don't trace myself out...
 
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