What is the Condition for Convergence of Sequence $p_{n}$?

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    Convergence Sequence
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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the convergence condition of the sequence \( p_n = (x_n, y_n) \) defined by specific recursive relations. Participants explore the transformation of the sequence into polar coordinates and the implications of this transformation on convergence behavior. The focus is on identifying necessary conditions for convergence based on the initial values \( x_0 \) and \( y_0 \).

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory, Technical explanation, Conceptual clarification, Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • One participant suggests expressing \( p_n \) in polar form to analyze the convergence condition.
  • Another participant notes the geometric interpretation of the transformation and hints at the significance of trigonometric values related to \( \pi/3 \).
  • A participant derives relationships in polar coordinates, indicating that \( r_{n+1} = r_n^2 \) and \( \theta_{n+1} = \theta_n + \pi/3 \).
  • It is proposed that the convergence of the sequence depends on the modulus \( r_n \) being less than 1.
  • Participants discuss the implications of the initial conditions \( x_0^2 + y_0^2 < 1 \), \( x_0^2 + y_0^2 > 1 \), and \( x_0^2 + y_0^2 = 1 \) on the behavior of the sequence.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

There is a general agreement that the condition for convergence involves the initial values \( x_0 \) and \( y_0 \), specifically that \( x_0^2 + y_0^2 < 1 \) leads to convergence. However, there is no consensus on the implications of other conditions, as participants discuss divergent and oscillatory behaviors without reaching a definitive conclusion on their significance.

Contextual Notes

Participants express uncertainty about the geometric interpretation and the role of the angle \( \theta_n \) in convergence. The discussion includes various mathematical transformations and assumptions that may not be fully resolved.

Francolino
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Let $ p_{n} = (x_{n},y_{n}) $ be a sequence that verifies:

$$ x_{n+1} = \sqrt{x_{n}^2 + y_{n}^2}\left ( \frac{1}{2}x_{n} - \frac{\sqrt{3}}{2}y_{n} \right ), \quad y_{n+1} = \sqrt{x_{n}^2 + y_{n}^2}\left ( \frac{\sqrt{3}}{2}x_{n} + \frac{1}{2}y_{n} \right ), \quad n \geq 0 $$

Which is the necessary and suficient condition that $ x_{0} $ and $ y_{0} $ have to verify to be sure that $ p_{n} $ is convergent?

I literally don't know how to solve this one. I hope you can help me. :)
 
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As a hint, try expressing $p_n$ in polar form $(r_n, \theta_n)$ instead of $(x_n,y_n)$.
 
First of all, thank you for answering!

I did what you suggested:

$$ \left\{\begin{matrix}
\displaystyle r_{n+1}\cos(\theta_{n+1}) = r_{n}\left ( \frac{1}{2}r_{n}\cos(\theta_{n}) - \frac{\sqrt{3}}{2}r_{n}\sin(\theta_{n}) \right )\ \\
\displaystyle r_{n+1}\sin(\theta_{n+1}) = r_{n}\left ( \frac{\sqrt{3}}{2}r_{n}\cos(\theta_{n}) + \frac{1}{2}r_{n}\sin(\theta_{n}) \right )\ \\
\end{matrix}\right. $$

Even though, I still don't see what's the matter with this. :/
 
Francolino said:
First of all, thank you for answering!

I did what you suggested:

$$ \left\{\begin{matrix}
\displaystyle r_{n+1}\cos(\theta_{n+1}) = r_{n}\left ( \frac{1}{2}r_{n}\cos(\theta_{n}) - \frac{\sqrt{3}}{2}r_{n}\sin(\theta_{n}) \right )\ \\
\displaystyle r_{n+1}\sin(\theta_{n+1}) = r_{n}\left ( \frac{\sqrt{3}}{2}r_{n}\cos(\theta_{n}) + \frac{1}{2}r_{n}\sin(\theta_{n}) \right )\ \\
\end{matrix}\right. $$

Even though, I still don't see what's the matter with this. :/
The next step is to think geometrically. The numbers $\dfrac12$ and $\dfrac{\sqrt3}2$ ought to remind you of things from trigonometry. Can you use that to give a geometric description of $p_{n+1}$ in terms of $p_n$?
 
I must be blind, but I cannot see it.

Anyway, the fact that $ \cos(\pi/3) = 1/2 $ and $ \sin(\pi/3) = \sqrt{3}/2 $ seems very curious to me. Is $ \pi/3 $ important in this context?
 
Francolino said:
Anyway, the fact that $ \cos(\pi/3) = 1/2 $ and $ \sin(\pi/3) = \sqrt{3}/2 $ seems very curious to me.
Right, so $\frac{1}{2}r_{n}\cos(\theta_{n}) - \frac{\sqrt{3}}{2}r_{n}\sin(\theta_{n}) = r_n\bigl(\cos(\pi/3\cos(\theta_{n}) - \sin(\pi/3)\sin(\theta_{n}) \bigr) = \ldots$ (use a trig. addition formula). Can you continue from there?
 
I came up to this:
$$ \left\{\begin{matrix}
r_{n+1}\cos(\theta_{n+1}) = r_{n}\cos(\theta_{n} + \pi/3) \\
r_{n+1}\sin(\theta_{n+1}) = r_{n}\sin(\theta_{n} + \pi/3)
\end{matrix}\right. $$
(I hope I didn't make any silly mistake).
 
Francolino said:
I came up to this:
$$ \left\{\begin{matrix}
r_{n+1}\cos(\theta_{n+1}) = r_{n}\cos(\theta_{n} + \pi/3) \\
r_{n+1}\sin(\theta_{n+1}) = r_{n}\sin(\theta_{n} + \pi/3)
\end{matrix}\right. $$
(I hope I didn't make any silly mistake).
Correct except that the $r_n$s should be squared: $$ \left\{\begin{matrix}
r_{n+1}\cos(\theta_{n+1}) = r_{n}^2\cos(\theta_{n} + \pi/3) \\
r_{n+1}\sin(\theta_{n+1}) = r_{n}^2\sin(\theta_{n} + \pi/3)
\end{matrix}\right. $$
What that says is that $r_{n+1} = r_n^2$ and $\theta_{n+1} = \theta_n + \pi/3$. In other words, to get from $p_n$ to $p_{n+1}$, you square its modulus and you rotate it through an angle $\pi/3$. What condition will you then need to ensure that the sequence $(p_n)$ converges to a limit?
 
Well, clearly the rotation won't decide the convergence. Then, if $ r_{n} \geq 1 $ it'll diverge. So $ r_{n} < 1 $ it'll converge (and we don't care about $ \theta_{n} $?).

So if $ r_{n} < 1 $ then $ r_{n}^2 < 1 $. Now, squaring and summing both equations (the ones I used to convert into polar coordinates*) I've got:
$$ x_{n}^2 + y_{n}^2 = r_{n}^2\cos^2(\theta_{n}) + r_{n}^2\sin^2(\theta_{n}) = r_{n}^n < 1 $$

Then, the codition is that $ x_{0}^2 + y_{0}^2 < 1 $?


* $ x_{n} = r_{n}\cos(\theta), y_{n} = r_{n}\sin(\theta) $
 
Last edited:
  • #10
Francolino said:
Then, the condition is that $ x_{0}^2 + y_{0}^2 < 1 $?
Yes, exactly! If $ x_{0}^2 + y_{0}^2 < 1 $ then $r_n\to0$ as $n\to\infty$ and so the sequence converges to $0$.

If $ x_{0}^2 + y_{0}^2 > 1 $ then $r_n\to\infty$ and so the sequence will diverge to infinity.

Finally, if $ x_{0}^2 + y_{0}^2 = 1 $ then the sequence will rotate around the unit circle and will not converge.
 

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