What is the force on a poppet valve due to expanding air?

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around calculating the force on a poppet valve due to expanding air in a system where the valve is pushed open by a rod and resisted by a spring. Participants explore the dynamics of pressure changes and fluid flow as the valve operates, aiming to model the system accurately.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • One participant seeks to determine the force on the poppet valve (Ffluid) resulting from expanding air, noting the difficulty in finding a relevant formula.
  • Another participant mentions that the spring force is equal and opposite to the force on the valve, implying a balance at the moment of opening.
  • A participant clarifies that while the spring force may initially balance the pressure force, the pressure in the container (P1) decreases as the valve opens, leading to a reduction in the force on the poppet.
  • It is suggested that the valve will close when the pressure force becomes less than the force required to deflect the spring.
  • One participant introduces Bernoulli's principle, explaining that as fluid velocity increases near the curtain area of the valve, the pressure across the poppet face drops, resulting in a decreased force on the poppet with increased flow.
  • Alternative designs, such as relief valves with a 'huddling chamber,' are mentioned as methods to increase the force on the poppet by modifying the area and geometry, thereby affecting the pressure load as the valve opens.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the dynamics of the forces acting on the poppet valve, particularly regarding how pressure changes affect the force on the valve as it opens and the implications for valve closure. No consensus is reached on a definitive model or formula for calculating the force.

Contextual Notes

The discussion highlights the complexity of fluid dynamics in relation to valve operation, with various assumptions about pressure changes and flow dynamics that remain unresolved. The impact of valve geometry on force calculations is also noted but not fully explored.

tommy101
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I need help with the following problem. I have attached a rough sketch showing what I'm looking at. Basically a popppet valve is closed over a vent. It is then pushed open by a force applied to the valve by the pushing rod. Their is a spring on the rod resisting this and providing a force labeled Fspring. The air inside the container at P1 is then expanding from rest through the valve to Pa (atmospheric). What i am trying to work out, and can't find a formula anywhere for, is what the force on the poppet valve will be due to the expanding air (Ffluid). I'm trying to model this system and currently the valve won't stay open as i can't compute the force on the poppet valve accuratley.
 

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The spring force, equal and opposite.
 
Cyrus said:
The spring force, equal and opposite.

Yes it will be when the valve initially opens. But the pressure in the bag (P1) then decreases, the mass flow through the poppet will decrease, so the force on the poppet will decrease. Thats what I'm trying to work out. I need to know the force on the poppet to work out when the valve closes again.
 
The valve will close when the pressure force is less than the force needed to deflect the spring.
 
In designs like you show, the velocity of the fluid increases as it aproaches the curtain area, so the pressure across the face of the poppet drops (think Bernoulli's principal) even though you may not measure a decrease in pressure directly upstream of the poppet. The result is the force on the poppet will decrease with increased flow.

Things can be done to change this. Relief valves for example, have a 'huddling chamber' downstream of the curtain area which effectively increases the area, resulting in a higher force on the poppet from the fluid which pops the valve open (even though the spring load also increases per k*dx). Similarly, adjusting poppet and valve geometry can provide different pressure forces on the poppet as the valve opens. Careful control of the geometry can change the pressure load as a function of lift.
 

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