What is the free-body diagram for a massless pulley in free fall?

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the free-body diagram of a massless pulley in the context of an Atwood's machine, particularly when the system transitions into free fall. Participants explore the forces acting on the pulley, the implications of idealizations like massless and inextensible strings, and the conditions under which these assumptions hold true.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Debate/contested
  • Mathematical reasoning

Main Points Raised

  • One participant questions the forces acting on a massless pulley when it is in free fall, noting that if the tension is zero and the pulley has no weight, it seems there are no forces acting on it despite it accelerating downwards.
  • Another participant clarifies that tension should be viewed as a pair of equal and opposite forces, with tension acting upwards on the weights and downwards on the pulley.
  • Some participants discuss the implications of idealizations, suggesting that while massless behavior can be approximated, it may not hold in all scenarios, particularly when external forces change, such as cutting the string.
  • There is a mention of confusion regarding the tension in the system and the conditions under which a massless pulley can have finite acceleration while maintaining zero net force.
  • One participant acknowledges a misunderstanding in their earlier claims about the forces acting on the pulley, indicating a refinement of their viewpoint based on diagrammatic evidence provided by others.
  • Another participant expresses confusion about a specific reference from a textbook regarding the tension in the system and the implications for the acceleration of the masses involved.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the forces acting on the pulley and the implications of idealizations. There is no consensus on the correct interpretation of the forces in the context of the Atwood's machine, particularly when transitioning to free fall.

Contextual Notes

Participants note that idealizations like massless and inextensible strings are valid only under certain conditions and may not accurately represent real-world scenarios. The discussion highlights the complexity of analyzing systems with idealized components and the potential for confusion arising from these assumptions.

Who May Find This Useful

This discussion may be useful for students and educators in physics, particularly those studying mechanics and the behavior of systems involving pulleys and tension. It may also benefit those interested in the nuances of idealizations in physical models.

  • #31
dyn said:
I agree which makes it confusing that mass-less pulleys and strings are used to teach Newtonian mechanics !
Hope we are not confusing you even more going deeper into the subject. :smile:

Also, levers, gears, wedges, belts and slopes, and any part of simple machines, are frequently assumed to have negligible mass, for the very same reasons of simplifying calculations and eliminating the effect of their individual accelerations. By doing so, we devote our neurones solely to the effect of the mechanical energy input into the system on the relatively big and important masses.

Please, see:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simple_machine

Same concept applies to deflection, stretching, friction and wear of those parts.
In order to make the learning process less confusing, we want to imaging that exactly the same amount of energy or work put into the simple machine goes out at the opposite end of it.

In the case of ideal problems involving mechanical advantage (MA), we assume a theoretical efficiency of 100%.
In practical or experimental problems, where the above assumptions can’t be made, there is a practical MA which magnitude is always less than the ideal MA.
 
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  • #32
dyn said:
I agree which makes it confusing that massless pulleys and strings are used to teach Newtonian mechanics !
Yes, and the only reason we can get away with it is that they’re always attached to something with non-zero mass and we’re applying a force to the whole thing.
 
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