What is the hottest temperate we can grow food at?

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In summary, there is a maximum temperature at which food can be grown and it is around 500 degrees centigrade. There is an optimum temperature for plant growth and it is between 75 degrees Fahrenheit and 90 degrees Fahrenheit.
  • #1
AtomicJoe
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Is there a maximum temperature at which food can be grown and if so what is it?

I know there is a not much food in the Sahara desert but is this because it is too hot?

I only ask because that desert is not as near the equator as say the Brazilian rain forests
which I presume might be hotter (not 100% sure on this one so bear with me :wink:).

Anyhow I am rambling, is there a max temperature above which no food can be grown and if so what is it?

As a rule of thumb I would guess things tend to grow better with higher temperatures but when they get too hot obviously this no longer holds.

So is there a hottest temperature and also is there an 'optimum' one, I presume there must be, just like in Goldilocks and the three bears ie not to hot not too cold but just right. :smile:

I tried googling but I could not find much, apart form for growing Marijuana plants, which is probably not a great food stuff as it is normally used an illegal drug.
 
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  • #2
Depends what you mean by food, I suppose: I would not care to live on extremophile scum, but a genetically engineered variant could be okay...
 
  • #3
AtomicJoe said:
I know there is a not much food in the Sahara desert but is this because it is too hot?
Lack of water, which is why you see trees and plants flourishing where there is water, such as an oasis

I only ask because that desert is not as near the equator as say the Brazilian rain forests.
Lots of water.

Sorry I don't have time to research studies on heat and plants right now, since water would be a factor.
 
  • #6
Atomic Joe,

Here is a good start, http://www.thehottestpepper.com/how-to-grow-bhut-jolokia-seeds.html" peppers.
Bhut Jolokia requires soil temperatures to be between 75°F and 90°F for proper germination. You may need to supply bottom heat with the aid of a propagation mat.

and http://forums.gardenweb.com/forums/load/pepper/msg03130328621.html":
I noticed 90 degrees F and above would cause flower drop.

Without flowers, no peppers, so 90 degrees F when flowers are present, and no more than 95 degrees F when peppers are forming. That is a start at least, anyone got any higher temps for flower and fruit formation for other fruit ? I would be surprised if these peppers are not top or close to top.

Rhody... :devil: :biggrin:

P.S. Does your question revolve around global warming, and food shortages ?
 
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  • #7
Don't forget that it was much hotter in the past and plant life flourished. It's cold weather that we need to worry about.
 
  • #8
Evo said:
Lack of water, which is why you see trees and plants flourishing where there is water, such as an oasis

Lots of water.

Sorry I don't have time to research studies on heat and plants right now, since water would be a factor.

Well you can assume there is water available I think, I don't think there is much point in growing stuff in a desert.
 
  • #9
Evo said:
Don't forget that it was much hotter in the past and plant life flourished. It's cold weather that we need to worry about.

I would agree with you there, it seems to be that frost is the big killer of crops.

I think most countries would benefit from higher temperatures, eg in the UK you can only grow fruit and veg for about 8 months, in other countries which are less seasonal the growing season is much longer.

It may be all year round in some but I am not sure.

I guess the only problem might be soil exhaustion, so you would need more fertiliser.
 
  • #10
Evo said:
Don't forget that it was much hotter in the past and plant life flourished. It's cold weather that we need to worry about.

Indeed, and it seem that they were great conditions for food growth judging by the size of some of the animals.

Wouldn't it be great for agriculture if we had those kinds of temperatures!

We could grow our own dinosaurs!
 
  • #11
AtomicJoe, you are not making any sense at all.

Why do things not grow in the desert?
Because there's no water.
OK, let's assume there's lots of water.

Is it heat that makes things grow?
No, it's water.
So if it's really hot, we'll be able to grow bigger things!
Fail.
 
  • #12
DaveC426913 said:
AtomicJoe, you are not making any sense at all.

Why do things not grow in the desert?
Because there's no water.
OK, let's assume there's lots of water.

Is it heat that makes things grow?
No, it's water.
So if it's really hot, we'll be able to grow bigger things!
Fail.


It is not just water, it is the soil type, You can't grow stuff in sand because there are no nutrients.
Anyway you are wrong about water making things grow, you don't see much growing in the Arctic or Antarctica do you?

Heat makes thing grow faster, that is the whole point of it.
 
  • #13
AtomicJoe said:
It is not just water, it is the soil type, You can't grow stuff in sand because there are no nutrients.

There are no nutrients because nothing has been living in the soil for millenia.

Where do you think nutreints come from?


AtomicJoe said:
Anyway you are wrong about water making things grow, you don't see much growing in the Arctic or Antarctica do you?
:rolls eyes :
Sorry. Didn't think I'd have to spell this out. liquid water.


AtomicJoe said:
Heat makes thing grow faster, that is the whole point of it.
The whole point of what?

You logic is wonky. Tiger and rainforests occur in the same place too. Does that mean tigers cause rainforests? Correlation does not imply causation.

Sunlight is what makes plants grow. They're photosynthetic. Plants will grow happily in low temps if provided enough water and sunlight.
 
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  • #14
is there any proportionality between temperature and food? but stil many food products obtained in the area s where temperature is more can't be obtained other places?///
 
  • #15
Evo said:
Lack of water, which is why you see trees and plants flourishing where there is water, such as an oasis

Lots of water.

Sorry I don't have time to research studies on heat and plants right now, since water would be a factor.

do water only matters??
 
  • #16
jathin.p said:
is there any proportionality between temperature and food? but stil many food products obtained in the area s where temperature is more can't be obtained other places?///
Again, it is not the temperature in these climates that is important; it is the sunlight.


jathin.p said:
do water only matters??

It is certainly primary.

Plants (and by extension, the rest of the food chain) need water, nutrients and sunlight.
 
  • #17
DaveC426913 said:
There are no nutrients because nothing has been living in the soil for millenia.

Where do you think nutreints come from?
:rolls eyes :
Sorry. Didn't think I'd have to spell this out. liquid water.
The whole point of what?

You logic is wonky. Tiger and rainforests occur in the same place too. Does that mean tigers cause rainforests? Correlation does not imply causation.

Sunlight is what makes plants grow. They're photosynthetic. Plants will grow happily in low temps if provided enough water and sunlight.
Ha ha, well that is a bit of a cop out isn't it?
What do you think sunlight does?

Surprise surprise it increases the temperature!

Plant growth is a chemical reactions and chemical reactions generally go faster (more growth) at higher temperatures.
Obviously there is an upper limit to that but for the Earth the 'dead' zone is the cold areas not the warm areas.
 
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  • #18
AtomicJoe said:
Ha ha, well that is a bit of a cop out isn't it?
What do you think sunlight does?

Surprise surprise it increases the temperature!

Plant growth is a chemical reactions and chemical reactions generally go faster (more growth) at higher temperatures.
Obviously there is an upper limit to that but for the Earth the 'dead' zone is the cold areas not the warm areas.

In that case wouldn't a better question be at what temperature are plant enzymes denatured at?
 
  • #19
Vagn said:
In that case wouldn't a better question be at what temperature are plant enzymes denatured at?

It might be if I knew what denatured mean but I don't so it won't.
 
  • #20
Enzymes are catalytic proteins which are vital for the vast majority of metabolic reactions. In humans they have an optimum temperature at around 40 degrees.

The sun light hitting plants allows for photosynthesis. Increasing the temperature will not necessarily help, like all evolved organisms different species will have different optimum temperatures, a cactus is unlikely to survive well in the tundra.

Biology is not simple enough for one to simply say "if we increase the temperature things will grow faster".

Different plants will need different things but all will need optimum amounts of heat, nutrients, liquid water and sunlight.
 
  • #21
ryan_m_b said:
Enzymes are catalytic proteins which are vital for the vast majority of metabolic reactions. In humans they have an optimum temperature at around 40 degrees.

The sun light hitting plants allows for photosynthesis. Increasing the temperature will not necessarily help, like all evolved organisms different species will have different optimum temperatures, a cactus is unlikely to survive well in the tundra.

Biology is not simple enough for one to simply say "if we increase the temperature things will grow faster".

Different plants will need different things but all will need optimum amounts of heat, nutrients, liquid water and sunlight.

Wow that is interesting

The average temperature of the Earth is only 15C, so we are well below the optimum range.

I wonder how much we could produce at 40C and whole 25C higher?
We would be drowning in food!



I was going on the basis that temperate increases the rate of chemical reactions and plant growth is a chemical reaction.

For sure you grow far more in green house don't you?

And that is because it is hotter, not because you get more sunlight, cos you don't.

The point I am making is that on the whole warmer temperatures produce more food, that pretty apparent in there number of greenhouses isn't it.

Without stating the obvious you very rarely see a gardener installing a cooling system, indeed if you have please let me know bout it cos I'm interested. Please supply a link.
 
  • #22
AtomicJoe said:
Wow that is interesting
The average temperature of the Earth is only 15C, so we are well below the optimum range.
I wonder how much we could produce at 40C and whole 25C higher?
We would be drowning in food!I was going on the basis that temperate increases the rate of chemical reactions and plant growth is a chemical reaction.
For sure you grow far more in green house don't you?
And that is because it is hotter, not because you get more sunlight, cos you don't.
The point I am making is that on the whole warmer temperatures produce more food, that pretty apparent in there number of greenhouses isn't it.
Without stating the obvious you very rarely see a gardener installing a cooling system, indeed if you have please let me know bout it cos I'm interested. Please supply a link.

I think you misunderstood me. This is the optimum temperature for enzyme activity, not growth. It is simplistic to think that if the environment was this temperature the plant would grow better. In addition increased enzyme activity won't necessarily lead to faster growth, in biological systems processes have to happen at just the right speeds at just the right times.

There are many other processes in an organism that will have different optimum temperatures, also the reason organisms are hotter than the environment is because of chemical activity, this heat needs to be expelled into the cooler air.

Greenhouses help some types of plant, they also allow you to regulate the nutrition and water intake. Greenhouses will not help you grow every plant because as I said different species have evolved to different temperatures. If you wanted to grow an Oak tree in the Sahara you would need a cooling system.

You need to go and learn more basic biology, it seems that you have a simplistic understanding (which is not your fault, we were all beginners sometime). In the majority of situations you can't just increase one input and expect a proportionally increased output.
 
  • #23
AtomicJoe said:
Wow that is interesting

The average temperature of the Earth is only 15C, so we are well below the optimum range.

I wonder how much we could produce at 40C and whole 25C higher?
We would be drowning in food!



I was going on the basis that temperate increases the rate of chemical reactions and plant growth is a chemical reaction.

For sure you grow far more in green house don't you?

And that is because it is hotter, not because you get more sunlight

So by your logic deserts such as sahara should be a paradise for agriculture. They are some of the hottest regions in the world.
 
  • #24
ryan_m_b said:
I think you misunderstood me. This is the optimum temperature for enzyme activity, not growth. It is simplistic to think that if the environment was this temperature the plant would grow better. In addition increased enzyme activity won't necessarily lead to faster growth, in biological systems processes have to happen at just the right speeds at just the right times.

There are many other processes in an organism that will have different optimum temperatures, also the reason organisms are hotter than the environment is because of chemical activity, this heat needs to be expelled into the cooler air.

Greenhouses help some types of plant, they also allow you to regulate the nutrition and water intake. Greenhouses will not help you grow every plant because as I said different species have evolved to different temperatures. If you wanted to grow an Oak tree in the Sahara you would need a cooling system.

You need to go and learn more basic biology, it seems that you have a simplistic understanding (which is not your fault, we were all beginners sometime). In the majority of situations you can't just increase one input and expect a proportionally increased output.

I think you slightly misunderstand, I am talking about growing food, I am not demanding a particular plant. Anyone will do and the hotter it is the more food you will get by and large.

By the way you can grow oak in the Sahara and no cooling system is needs.

Look here is one.

http://www.123rf.com/photo_4813568_a-huge-old-oak-tree-in-a-tropical-forest.html
 
  • #25
AtomicJoe said:
I think you slightly misunderstand, I am talking about growing food, I am not demanding a particular plant. Anyone will do and the hotter it is the more food you will get by and large.

By the way you can grow oak in the Sahara and no cooling system is needs.

Look here is one.

http://www.123rf.com/photo_4813568_a-huge-old-oak-tree-in-a-tropical-forest.html

Any food plant will do? Do you realize how many different species of plant we grow for food? Again though plants have evolved to grow at optimum temperatures, if we built a big greenhouse over some corn and cranked up the temp to 40 degrees there's no reason to think that it would grow faster or larger. What references do you have to support the claim "the hotter it is the more food you will get by and large"?

That picture is not of an oak tree in the Sahara.
 
  • #26
AtomicJoe said:
I think you slightly misunderstand, I am talking about growing food, I am not demanding a particular plant. Anyone will do and the hotter it is the more food you will get by and large.
You have been told several times that you are wrong and people have been very generous in giving you correct information which you continually choose to ignore. I suggest that you stop the trolling and do some research and don't post again until you have an acceptable scientific source to back up your claims. It will do you a lot of good and will allow you to ask better questions, if you still have any.
 
  • #27
AtomicJoe said:
Ha ha, well that is a bit of a cop out isn't it?
What do you think sunlight does?

Surprise surprise it increases the temperature!

Plant growth is a chemical reactions and chemical reactions generally go faster (more growth) at higher temperatures.
Obviously there is an upper limit to that but for the Earth the 'dead' zone is the cold areas not the warm areas.

I was about to tell you in how many ways the above is flawed but it seems Evo has beat me to it.

Joe, seriously, you can learn things here. But you won't if you insist on following your own internal, convoluted logic.
 
  • #28
DaveC426913 said:
I was about to tell you in how many ways the above is flawed but it seems Evo has beat me to it.

Joe, seriously, you can learn things here. But you won't if you insist on following your own internal, convoluted logic.

Thanks for telling me I am wrong.

Now for me to learn it would be helpful to tell me precisely which statements I have made are wrong and also if you would be so kind why they are wrong.

Telling me I am wrong is a very broad sense is not helpful as I have often made several statements and you need to be more specific if you want to teach me anything.
 
  • #29
AtomicJoe said:
Thanks for telling me I am wrong.

Now for me to learn it would be helpful to tell me precisely which statements I have made are wrong and also if you would be so kind why they are wrong.

Telling me I am wrong is a very broad sense is not helpful as I have often made several statements and you need to be more specific if you want to teach me anything.

As has been said by many people, different plants have different requirements. All plants require optimum amounts of; light, soil temperature, air temperature, different minerals, concentrations of minerals and water. The specific amounts differ from plants to plants.

Therefore increasing just one variable (unless increasing it pushes it towards optimum) will not lead to greater growth.

What you have done wrong is to assert that increasing heat leads to increased growth, not only because the statement is wrong but because you have said it with no references. A bigger mistake you have made is to ignore things that people have written. For example in post 21 you quote me and in that quote I say that biology is not simple enough that you can just increase heat and expect more growth yet you claim this from my quote. Repeatedly people have said that there are many requirements for plant growth each with different optimums but you did not address this.

I would advise that next time you wish to start a thread or post first you do some background research to acquire some references. Then respond to what people say by reading what they say and taking it on board.
 
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  • #30
ryan_m_b said:
As has been said by many people, different plants have different requirements. All plants require optimum amounts of; light, soil temperature, air temperature, different minerals, concentrations of minerals and water. The specific amounts differ from plants to plants.

Therefore increasing just one variable (unless increasing it pushes it towards optimum) will not lead to greater growth.

What you have done wrong is to assert that increasing heat leads to increased growth, not only because the statement is wrong but because you have said it with no references. A bigger mistake you have made is to ignore things that people have written. For example in post 21 you quote me and in that quote I say that biology is not simple enough that you can just increase heat and expect more growth yet you claim this from my quote. Repeatedly people have said that there are many requirements for plant growth each with different optimums but you did not address this.

I would advise that next time you wish to start a thread or post first you do some background research to acquire some references. Then respond to what people say by reading what they say and taking it on board.
OK something concrete there.

Now can you then explain why a tobacco farmer in Mississippi can grow two crops in a year whilst one in Canada can only grow one? It seems to me it is because it is hotter in Mississippi, or have I overlooked something?

Regarding references, I seem to be the only one who has posted anything external to the site to back up my posts.
I mean you have provide no references that I am aware of so can I ask why you do not provide reference?

I didn't post references for something such as two crops in warmer Mississippi because I did not think anyone would dispute
that.
 
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  • #31
Also:-


http://www.ces.ncsu.edu/depts/hort/consumer/weather/tempeffect-plants.html


Review of Temperature Effects on Plant Growth:
Photosynthesis: Increases with temperature to a point.
Respiration: Rapidly increases with temperature.
Transpiration: Increases with temperature.
Flowering: May be partially triggered by temperature.
Sugar storage: Low temperatures reduce energy use and increase sugar storage.
Dormancy:Warmth, after a period of low temperature, will break dormancy and the plant will resume active growth.

Those statement seem to broadly back up what I have been saying do they not?
 
  • #32
AtomicJoe said:
OK something concrete there.

Now can you then explain why a tobacco farmer in Mississippi can grow two crops in a year whilst one in Canada can only grow one? It seems to me it is because it is hotter in Mississippi, or have I overlooked something?
You've completely overlooked the fact that a more temperate climate has a longer growing season, and may allow more than one planting/harvest. Heat has nothing to do with it.

I didn't post references for something such as two crops in warmer Mississippi because I did not think anyone would dispute
that.
Since you aren't listening to us and insist on pushing the same misconceptions over and over no matter how many times we correct you, you continue your unwillingness to look things up.

I'm going to encourage you to look up valid information on what we've already told you.

You have a 10 day vacation to learn how to look up the information that was given to you here and hopefully you can learn during this period.

Good luck to you.
 
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  • #33
AtomicJoe said:
Also:-


http://www.ces.ncsu.edu/depts/hort/consumer/weather/tempeffect-plants.html


Review of Temperature Effects on Plant Growth:
Photosynthesis: Increases with temperature to a point.
Respiration: Rapidly increases with temperature.
Transpiration: Increases with temperature.
Flowering: May be partially triggered by temperature.
Sugar storage: Low temperatures reduce energy use and increase sugar storage.
Dormancy:Warmth, after a period of low temperature, will break dormancy and the plant will resume active growth.

Those statement seem to broadly back up what I have been saying do they not?

It is outstanding how you can ignore all the emphasis people have put on optimal conditions. Repeatedly you have claimed that increasing temperature will lead to increased growth without acknowledging the fact that this only applies if you are increasing the temperature towards an optimum. You have not acknowledged the multifactoral nature of plant needs nor that different plants are different. You have not even recognised that plants need temperature changes, not a constant temperature.

Nobody is saying that increasing temperature will never lead to increased growth, they are saying that there are multiple factors that have optimum levels and that all plants are different

From your own link there are are many examples where the authors have stressed that there are optimum levels that change for different plants;

  • Chrysanthemums will flower for a longer period of time if daylight temperatures are 50°F. The Christmas cactus forms flowers as a result of short days and low temperatures.

  • Daffodils are forced to flower by putting bulbs in cold storage in October at 35 to 40°F. The cold temperature allows the bulb to mature

  • Plants produce maximum growth when exposed to a day temperature that is about 10 to 15°F higher than the night temperature. This allows the plant to photosynthesize (build up) and respire (break down) during an optimum daytime temperature, and to curtail the rate of respiration during a cooler night.

  • High temperatures cause increased respiration, sometimes above the rate of photosynthesis. This means that the products of photosynthesis are being used more rapidly than they are being produced. For growth to occur, photosynthesis must be greater than respiration.

  • Not all plants grow best in the same temperature range. For example, snapdragons grow best when night time temperatures are 55°F, while the poinsettia grows best at 62°F. Florist cyclamen does well under very cool conditions, while many bedding plants grow best at a higher temperature.

  • Peaches are a prime example; most cultivars require 700 to 1,000 hours below 45°F and above 32°F before they break their rest period and begin growth. This time period varies for different plants.

I realize that you have been sent on a 10 day break but I'm leaving this message here for you when you get back and for others to see.
 
  • #34
AtomicJoe said:
I don't think there is much point in growing stuff in a desert.

The term "desert" is a climatic term. It usually refers to areas with deficient precipitation. This has nothing to do with the availability of ground water for agricultural purposes.

In point of fact, the world's deserts are amongst it most productive places on a crop value per acre basis. Think of the Imperial Valley in California, the Nile Valley, the Indus Valley, the Gila Valley in Arizona, the list goes on. A very large part of the world's agricultural production is either wholly dependent on irrigation or partially so. I would guess at more than half.

Rainfall is just too unpredictable for successful commercial agriculture.
 
  • #35
klimatos said:
The term "desert" is a climatic term. It usually refers to areas with deficient precipitation. This has nothing to do with the availability of ground water for agricultural purposes.

In point of fact, the world's deserts are amongst it most productive places on a crop value per acre basis. Think of the Imperial Valley in California, the Nile Valley, the Indus Valley, the Gila Valley in Arizona, the list goes on. A very large part of the world's agricultural production is either wholly dependent on irrigation or partially so. I would guess at more than half.

Rainfall is just too unpredictable for successful commercial agriculture.

Those places sound like places which are warm, they also get a fair bit of sun.

Are there any 'cool' (significantly cooler) which are highly productive?

I guess one problem with colder places is that frost kills many plants so it is hard to produce a lot of food crops there, Antarctica being a prime example, I don't see that area becoming a major food supplier in the near future (unless you now something I don't).I not you quoted me slightly out of context the full test was:

"Well you can assume there is water available I think, I don't think there is much point in growing stuff in a desert."

Hence the 'desert' I refereed to was a place with a lack of water. Thus an irrigated desert would not qualify as a desert
in that respect because although it may technically be a desert, the irrigation makes it far from a desert in effect.
So we are not really in disagreement on that point.

Some people seem to cherry picking worst case scenarios to make their point but I am concerned with the best case scenarios.
I mean the middle of the pacific on the equator is hot, but it is probably not most people's first choice to locate a farm.
 
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<h2>1. What is the hottest temperature that plants can tolerate?</h2><p>Plants can typically tolerate temperatures up to 95°F (35°C) without experiencing any significant damage. However, this varies depending on the type of plant and its specific adaptations to heat.</p><h2>2. Can plants grow in temperatures above 100°F (38°C)?</h2><p>Yes, some plants can grow in temperatures above 100°F (38°C), but they may require specific adaptations or techniques to survive and thrive. For example, desert plants have evolved to withstand extreme heat and drought conditions.</p><h2>3. What factors affect the maximum temperature for growing food?</h2><p>The maximum temperature for growing food is affected by several factors, including the type of plant, its stage of growth, humidity levels, and soil moisture. Additionally, the length of exposure to high temperatures can also impact a plant's ability to grow and produce food.</p><h2>4. Are there any techniques to help plants grow in hotter temperatures?</h2><p>Yes, there are several techniques that can help plants grow in hotter temperatures. These include providing shade or using shade cloths, mulching to retain soil moisture, and using irrigation systems to keep plants cool and hydrated.</p><h2>5. What are the potential consequences of growing food in extreme heat?</h2><p>Growing food in extreme heat can have several consequences, including reduced plant growth and yield, increased water usage, and increased susceptibility to pests and diseases. It can also lead to food shortages and affect food prices, especially in areas where extreme heat is becoming more frequent due to climate change.</p>

Related to What is the hottest temperate we can grow food at?

1. What is the hottest temperature that plants can tolerate?

Plants can typically tolerate temperatures up to 95°F (35°C) without experiencing any significant damage. However, this varies depending on the type of plant and its specific adaptations to heat.

2. Can plants grow in temperatures above 100°F (38°C)?

Yes, some plants can grow in temperatures above 100°F (38°C), but they may require specific adaptations or techniques to survive and thrive. For example, desert plants have evolved to withstand extreme heat and drought conditions.

3. What factors affect the maximum temperature for growing food?

The maximum temperature for growing food is affected by several factors, including the type of plant, its stage of growth, humidity levels, and soil moisture. Additionally, the length of exposure to high temperatures can also impact a plant's ability to grow and produce food.

4. Are there any techniques to help plants grow in hotter temperatures?

Yes, there are several techniques that can help plants grow in hotter temperatures. These include providing shade or using shade cloths, mulching to retain soil moisture, and using irrigation systems to keep plants cool and hydrated.

5. What are the potential consequences of growing food in extreme heat?

Growing food in extreme heat can have several consequences, including reduced plant growth and yield, increased water usage, and increased susceptibility to pests and diseases. It can also lead to food shortages and affect food prices, especially in areas where extreme heat is becoming more frequent due to climate change.

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