What is the meaning of the shorthand notation used in dynamical systems?

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the shorthand notation used in dynamical systems, particularly in the context of a simple harmonic oscillator as presented in a lecture series. Participants explore the meanings of various symbols and equations related to state space, phase space, and the relationships between position and velocity in dynamical systems.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Conceptual clarification
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • One participant questions the meaning of the shorthand notation in equations related to a simple harmonic oscillator, specifically regarding the interpretation of \ddot{q}, \dot{q}, and their relationships to functions in state space.
  • Another participant proposes that \dot{q}=v indicates a relationship between the position and velocity coordinates, suggesting that \gamma_2(t) is the derivative of \gamma_1(t).
  • There is a discussion about the interpretation of \frac{\mathrm{d} v}{\mathrm{d} q} using the chain rule, with one participant analyzing it in terms of derivatives of the functions involved.
  • A participant provides a proof related to the identity used in the chain rule, clarifying the notation for derivatives in the context of inverse functions.
  • One participant corrects an earlier statement about \omega, clarifying that it is a parameter of the system rather than angular velocity.
  • Another participant expresses uncertainty about the role of the notation q and \dot{q}, suggesting that they may not be independent variables as traditionally claimed, and references a post that challenges this interpretation.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing interpretations of the shorthand notation and its implications, particularly regarding the independence of variables and the roles of q and \dot{q}. The discussion remains unresolved with multiple competing views on these interpretations.

Contextual Notes

Some participants note that the notation may be used sloppily in traditional contexts, leading to confusion about the definitions and roles of the variables involved. There are also references to differing interpretations in literature, which may contribute to the ongoing debate.

Rasalhague
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I have some questions about what I think is a fairly standard and common short-hand notation used in physics.

Today I watched lecture 2 in the nptelhrd series Classical Physics by Prof. V. Balakrishnan. In it, he models a kind of system called a simple harmonic oscillator, I think using TC = C \times \mathbb{R} = \mathbb{R}^2 for a state space (He calls it phase space, but I'll use the more general name, as phase space is said elsewhere to have a coordinate called "momentum" whereas he calls the corresponding coordinate "velocity".), where C is the configuration space of the system, and TC the tangent bundle thereon. He labels points in state space with q and \dot{q}, thus (q,\dot{q}) \in \mathbb{R}^2. So far so good. Then he writes some equations:

\ddot{q}=-\omega q, \enspace\enspace\enspace V(q)=\frac{1}{2}m\omega^2q^2, \enspace\enspace\enspace m\ddot{q}=-\frac{\mathrm{d} V}{\mathrm{d} q}(q);

\dot{q}=v, \enspace\enspace\enspace \dot{v}=-\frac{V'(q)}{m}, \enspace\enspace\enspace\frac{\mathrm{d} v}{\mathrm{d} q}=-\frac{\omega^2}{v}q.

I'm not satisfied that I understand all of these symbols.

I think \omega = \sqrt{k/m} and m are constants (angular velocity and mass). I think \ddot{q} should mean the value at t of the second derivative of some function whose value at t is labelled q. I'm guessing this implicit function is the first component function, \gamma_1, of a curve function, \gamma : \mathbb{R} \rightarrow \mathbb{R}^2 \; |\; t \mapsto (\gamma_1(t),\gamma_2(t)), whose image is a trajectory in state space, and that this is an arbitrary element of the set of trajectories defined by the differential equation(s). I think V : \mathbb{R} \rightarrow \mathbb{R} is a scalar field on the configuration space C = \mathbb{R}.

Does \dot{q}=v mean \gamma_2(t)=f\circ\gamma_1(t) for some unknown function f:\mathbb{R}\rightarrow \mathbb{R}?

If so, does does \dot{v} mean (f\circ\gamma_1)'(t) or f'\circ\gamma_1(t)? I'm guessing the latter.

Is -\frac{V'(q)}{m} to be read as -\frac{(V\circ\gamma_1)'(t)}{m} or -\frac{V'\circ\gamma_1(t)}{m}? Again, I'd guess the latter.

How about the final equation?

\frac{\mathrm{d} v}{\mathrm{d} q}=-\frac{\omega^2}{v}q

Is it

f'\circ\gamma_1(t)=-\frac{\omega^2}{f\circ\gamma_1(t)}\gamma_1(t) \enspace ?
 
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I think I've got it now. He writes points in the image of the curve as (q(t),v(t)), meaning \gamma[t]=(\gamma_1[t],\gamma_2[t]). (I'll use square brackets here around the arguments of a function, to disambiguate them from the rounded brackets used to show order of operations.) His equations \dot{q}=v and \dot{v}=-V'(q)/m mean

\gamma'[t]:=(\gamma_1'[t],\gamma_2'[t])=\left ( \gamma_2[t],-\frac{V'\circ\gamma_1[t]}{m} \right )

So, although "position"coordinate q and "velocity"coordinate \dot{q} are independent variables for functions whose domain is the state space, "position"particle \gamma_1 and "velocity"particle \gamma_2 = \gamma_1' are functions related in the familiar way, the latter being always the derivative of the former, in any dynamical system. It just happens the same names, and often symbols, are used for both concepts.

Finally,

\frac{\mathrm{d} v}{\mathrm{d} q}

can be analysed, with the Leibniz notation for the single-variable chain rule in mind, as

\frac{\mathrm{d} v}{\mathrm{d} t}\frac{\mathrm{d} t}{\mathrm{d} q}

which, all being well, means

(\gamma_2\circ(\gamma_1^{-1}))'\circ\gamma_1[t]

=(\gamma_2'\circ(\gamma_1)^{-1}\circ\gamma_1)[t]\cdot((\gamma^{-1})'\circ\gamma_1)[t]

=\gamma_2'[t]\cdot((\gamma^{-1})'\circ\gamma_1)[t]

=\frac{\gamma_2'[t]}{\gamma_1'[t]},

so that, in this context, an expression like \mathrm{d}f can be read as another notation for f'.
 
Last edited:
Proof of the identity used in the final step. Let y=f[x] such that x=g[y], where x and y are arbitrary real numbers. Then

(g\circ f)'[x]=((g'\circ f)[x])\cdot(f'[x]).

But g\circ f[x]=g[y]=x, so g\circ f is the identity function on \mathbb{R}. So

(Id)'[x]=1=((g'\circ f)[x])\cdot(f'[x]),

so, for f'[x]\neq 0,

g'[y]=\frac{1}{f'[x]}.

That is:

(f^{-1})'\circ f[x]=\frac{1}{f'[x]}.

Hence the notation

\frac{\mathrm{d} x}{\mathrm{d} y}=\frac{1}{(\frac{\mathrm{d} y}{\mathrm{d} x})}.
 
Rasalhague said:
angular velocity

Oopsh, no not angular velocity, just a parameter, a constant of the system.
 
I think my interpretation of the ideas is right, but from this thread (see especially Fredrik's post #19), it seems I may have misunderstood what role the notation q and \dot q play, and that they're really synonymous with \gamma_1 and \gamma_2=\gamma_1', but are traditionally used sloppily also to denote the value of these functions. However, I'm still troubled by the widespread insistence that they stand for "independent variables" (which obviously isn't the case if they're defined as \gamma_1 and \gamma_2=\gamma_1', or even the values of these functions). Balakrishnan talks about them as independent variables, and Roger Penrose calls them independent variables, in the quote in #23 of the thread I linked to. Penrose also seems to be treating them as (natural?) coordinate functions on the state space. But perhaps he's simultaneously letting them denote the coordinate representations of curves through the state space...
 

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