What is the physics of motion through space?

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the physics of motion through space, particularly the differences between motion as a geometric phenomenon and as an energetic process. Participants explore concepts related to the metric expansion of the universe, the nature of motion, and the implications of these ideas in the context of general relativity and particle physics.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Debate/contested
  • Conceptual clarification
  • Technical explanation

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants propose that the metric expansion of the universe and the motion of massive objects are distinct processes, with expansion being a mathematical property and motion being a physical phenomenon.
  • There is a suggestion that motion could be viewed as an energetic process, raising questions about the implications of such a perspective on understanding motion through spacetime.
  • Others argue that motion is straightforward and does not require complex theories, asserting that objects simply move when they must.
  • Questions are raised about the nature of motion, including whether there are different types of motion and how they relate to concepts like speed limits and local causality.
  • Some participants challenge the idea that galaxies are not subject to speed limits, emphasizing that local velocities are well-defined, while relative velocities at cosmological distances are not.
  • There is a discussion about the definition of relative velocity and the implications of relativity on the understanding of motion, with some suggesting that motion is a matter of perspective.
  • The concept of worldlines in the block universe is introduced, suggesting that motion may be an illusion based on our perception of spacetime.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express a range of views on the nature of motion, with some agreeing that motion can be viewed from different perspectives, while others contest the necessity of complex theories to explain it. There is no consensus on whether the different types of motion discussed are fundamentally the same or different, and the discussion remains unresolved regarding the implications of these views.

Contextual Notes

Participants highlight limitations in defining relative velocities at cosmological distances and the challenges in conceptualizing motion within the framework of relativity. The discussion touches on the complexity of defining motion and the implications of different models of spacetime.

  • #31
bahamagreen said:
Shan Gao makes an argument that this postulate leads directly to a maximum signal speed and its invariance

Is Shan Gao making an argument that the experimental observation of an invariant maximum signal speed implies spacetime is discrete?
 
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  • #32
Grinkle said:
Is Shan Gao making an argument that the experimental observation of an invariant maximum signal speed implies spacetime is discrete?

I don't think so, better to judge for yourself; paper is titled On the invariance of the speed of light
 
  • #33
@bahamagreen Thanks. I also don't read him to be arguing in that direction.
 
  • #34
I'd like to thank everyone who contributed to the thread. I have read all your replies, but I cannot respond to every one without turning my post into an unreadable mess.

@bahamagreen is right about some of the things that puzzle me.

One is the mentioned disconnect between the coordinates plus their first derivative (which seem relative and therefore suspicious - like those projections of the same fish on the different walls of the aquarium - an effect sometimes used to speculate about the nature of quantum entanglement) and higher-order derivatives like acceleration, change in acceleration, etc. (which seem objective and linked to physical forces). For example, it feels non-intuitive how photons, traveling at the speed of light, allegedly "experience zero time" and, from their perspective, "instantly" connect the emitter (cause) with the absorber (effect) - as if both were directly adjacent on some deeper dimension (unlike their observer-specific spacetime "projections").

The other puzzle is whether the Universe is an emergent phenomenon so the properties of spacetime, such as the speed of light limit, have local, quantum origins (such as the abovementioned relationship between the Planck units). I admit I find geometric explanations of motion to be utterly boring, since they only seem to describe how objects move, not explain why they do - which is very practical, but seems like a problem already solved 100 years ago, with not much potential for surprising discoveries.

(Peter is right - let me read up on QFT).
Thanks again everyone!
 
  • #35
Netspirit said:
For example, it feels non-intuitive how photons, traveling at the speed of light, allegedly "experience zero time" and, from their perspective, "instantly" connect the emitter (cause) with the absorber (effect) - as if both were directly adjacent on some deeper dimension (unlike their observer-specific spacetime "projections").
That's easy - just look at the word "allegedly". The allegation is false and a pretty good rule of thumb is that if whatever you're learning from says things like that, you're wasting your time with that source.
I admit I find geometric explanations of motion to be utterly boring, since they only seem to describe how objects move, not explain why they do
However, that's all that empirical science ever does. On close scrutiny, all scientific explanations of why something works the way it does turn out to be statements of how the universe behaves, not why.
 
  • #36
Netspirit said:
For example, it feels non-intuitive how photons, traveling at the speed of light, allegedly "experience zero time" and, from their perspective, "instantly" connect the emitter (cause) with the absorber (effect) - as if both were directly adjacent on some deeper dimension (unlike their observer-specific spacetime "projections")

If you look at the definition of proper time, you see that the notion of proper time doesn't exist for a particle moving at speed ##c##. That is not the same thing as saying the proper time is zero. Although a phrase like "there is no time experienced" doesn't make that distinction clear (if at all) and is therefore open to misinterpretation. Some authors seem to propagate that misunderstanding, either on purpose or because they are unaware of the distinction.
 
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