News What is the recent tribute song released for the Orlando nightclub shooting?

[Sophia]

There are no Christian theocracies in the modern world, unlike in Islam. Yes misguided Christians have and always will exist, but the nature of the religion as it exists today is completely antithetical to theocratic dictatorship.

I didn't claim there are Christian theocracies today. I said they would be people who want it if there were right circumstances.
I really don't want to open that debate, but history shows what some Christians did in the name of God.
And in modern age still do, not with weapons, for example by hiding certain disgusting crimes.
Look, I'm not against Christianity by any means. It's still dear to me. But let's not pretend that all Christians are saints.
Any religion can be used to excuse violence.
That's all I've got to say about the topic.

 

[Vanadium 50]

Look, I'm not against Christianity by any means. It's still dear to me. But let's not pretend that all Christians are saints.

Where are you going with this? It sounds like you are defending a Muslim shooting a bunch of people whose behavior he didn't like by a "tu quoque" argument that not all Chrisrtians are saints, so we can excuse a particular Muslim's violence. (The topic of this thread)

You bet Christians shun Westboro

True. It's also important to point out that Westboro has said some vile and hateful things. But they have not gone out and started shooting people whose behavior they don't like.

ISIS, led by the islamic scholar Baghdadi, throws gays off rooftops

And Iran hangs them, and Saudi Arabia beheads them (well, it's been a decade since a beheading. The Washington Post reports that they are considering switching to stoning).

 

[Sophia]

Where are you going with this? It sounds like you are defending a Muslim shooting a bunch of people whose behavior he didn't like by a "tu quoque"

?
I'm very sorry but this is absolutely NOT what I said! I sincerely have no idea what made you think that.
I only reacted to one thought of fresh_42 about Christianity at the beginning. My only thought that I said in the topic was that in general, both Christianity and Islam can be used to excuse violence.
I also said that I'm sorry for what happened and expressed condolences to the families, even though they will not read it.

I DID NOT in any way say that the shootings were OK. to be honest, I'm quite shocked that my words sounded like that to someone.

I don't know maybe you think I'm a Muslim? No, I'm not.

 

[Dotini]

Is this particular mass shooting another example of domestic terrorism or violence like all those done at schools?

Or is it more (or less?) than that because religion and sexual heresies are involved?

Either way, it is hard to see any effective measures currently being taken to stop mass shootings. On the contrary, they seem to be increasing. Must we suppose they are essentially part of the price to be paid for technologies such as the semi-auto rifle and the internet? Eliminating the internet would be easier than eliminating firearms, and perhaps it would be more effective?

 

[Paul Colby]

Teaching intolerance is a strong component of the problem. Most (not all) intolerance is taught through religions which claim to define "right" and "wrong" ways of living. This is a type of self destructive behavior that is very difficult to counter. It may take hundreds of years but the problem or the species will burn out eventually.

 

[Bandersnatch]

It's also important to point out that Westboro has said some vile and hateful things. But they have not gone out and started shooting people whose behavior they don't like.

Weren't there like shootings at abortion clinics in the US in the 90s? I recall one being done by a reverend (not sure if associated with Westboro at all).

 

[jim hardy]

I wish i were a little more wise about psychology .

Seems to me we're imprinting kids from an early age that ultra-violence is an okay way to settle grievances.
When i was just a little guy "Mighty Mouse" invoked his superhuman power to rescue the poor oppressed mice from the evil cat . His reward was approbation. The message was repeated every Saturday morning.

Movies make it look a lot more real
Scarface, Pulp Fiction, Rambo, Terminator, Sopranos
healthy minds view it as acted out cartoons but I'm afraid it smolders in psyches that suffer from early trauma or unthinkable training.
"Kill Americans" Kill Whitey" "Kill the abortionists" are all taught in some emotionally dark places..

Ultra-Violent as it was, i thought "Natural Born Killers" touched on two points : psychological rage of the abused child , and sensationalism in the news and entertainment industries delivering the approval that smolderers so crave..

Is this particular mass shooting another example of domestic terrorism or violence like all those done at schools?

Reports this morning suggest he was a smolderer who went over the edge ..

http://minnesota.cbslocal.com/2016/06/13/fbi-domestic-terrorism-cases/
MINNEAPOLIS (WCCO) — The FBI’s open-then-closed investigation into Omar Mateen’s history raises the question: How many other home-grown terrorists are being investigated, and how many are still a threat that may have dropped off the radar?

Mateen had been investigated by the FBI for 10 months starting in 2013 before the FBI had closed the case.
......
“The Bureau has close to 1,000 open cases in all 50 states focused on people who are at some stage between consuming the poison from the group we call ISIL to acting on that poison either by traveling or by moving towards violence here in the United States,” Comey said.

By “consuming the poison,” the FBI director was referring to watching ISIS propaganda videos. Testimony in a four week terror trial in Minneapolis that ended earlier this month revealed the FBI’s intensive surveillance of social media for ISIS supporters and for anyone who is contacting terror groups.

Somebody is actively mining smolderers. What's their network ?
Help root them out. .

old jim

 

[Dr_Zinj]

Worst mass shooting in US history. Just depressing.

Actually Greg, it's not the worse mass shooting in the history of the U.S. There have been dozens of mass shootings since the beginning of the U.S.; often times perpetrated by the U.S. military, particularly in regard to repression and suppression of Native Americans, to include murder of hundreds including innocent women and children. However, it is correct to say this is the worse mass shooting by a lone gunman.

It is pretty clear that the gunman was motivated by Islamic ideology, including his father's anti-gay beliefs. It's also clear the gunman surveilled the club on multiple visits and had intimate knowledge of it's layout, usual clientele and security. Reports say he engaged the security officer first, but nobody has said whether the guard fled or was killed. I suspect the guard was killed or rendered hors de combat as the shooter's first objective/target. Which is what I would have done had I planned on such an act.

Not sure how this applies to the Physics Forums unless we're going to discuss building construction to minimize attacks, construction of lightweight body armors, or non-lethal weapons (such as acoustic or thermal energy induction.)

 

[Dr_Zinj]

Everybody knows these folks are crazy hatemongering zombies hiding behind freedom of religion clause.
they're no more Baptists than Beelzebub.

But Islam has a PR problem . Most folks know about islamism only what they hear in the news; actually only the fraction of what they hear that they accept.

Like it or not humans are xenophobic. Those black tents and masks the girls wear scare me more than a KKK hood.
Anybody with that much psychological need to hide seems to me , well, let's just say psychologically aberrant .

Until muslims start publicly denouncing the radicals and helping authorities round them up, they will be mistrusted .

Yes, however, I don't recall the Westboroers physically attacking and murdering anyone

 

[Dr_Zinj]

Is this particular mass shooting another example of domestic terrorism or violence like all those done at schools?

Or is it more (or less?) than that because religion and sexual heresies are involved?

Either way, it is hard to see any effective measures currently being taken to stop mass shootings. On the contrary, they seem to be increasing. Must we suppose they are essentially part of the price to be paid for technologies such as the semi-auto rifle and the internet? Eliminating the internet would be easier than eliminating firearms, and perhaps it would be more effective?

More because of religion, sexual heresies, and national allegiance involved. This particular attack is similar in motivation with the Riverside Ca. attack and the Boston Marathon bombing, as well as the Fort Hood shooting, and should be grouped accordingly. While can be argued that all perpetrators were mentally unstable, they really don't fit the definition of being mentally ill the way, say the Connecticut school attacker , or even Gabby Gifford's assailant were.

 

[russ_watters]

True. It's also important to point out that Westboro has said some vile and hateful things. But they have not gone out and started shooting people whose behavior they don't like.

The key difference I see is the concept of a Holy War. With few exceptions, modern even fundamentalist Christians leave the wrath to God. What separates Islamic fundamentalism is they presume to do the wrath on God's behalf.

 

[russ_watters]

Weren't there like shootings at abortion clinics in the US in the 90s? I recall one being done by a reverend (not sure if associated with Westboro at all).

There was one last year - first since the '90s I think. That is indeed the most prominent example of Christian perpetrated terrorism I can think of. Even setting aside that it's support base is much narrower, it is by its nature more focused and limited.

There are other forms/motivations of terrorism that happen in the US. In no particular order, off the top of my head;
-Anti-government
-Racial
-Eco

But the external/externally motivated Islamic terrorism is by far the biggest threat. I'm not sure what has happened over the past few years, but after 9/11 woke us up to make an effort to defend against it, we went something like a decade before the next on our home soil.

 

[RussB]

...

But Islam has a PR problem . Most folks know about islamism only what they hear in the news; actually only the fraction of what they hear that they accept.

Like it or not humans are xenophobic. Those black tents and masks the girls wear scare me more than a KKK hood.
Anybody with that much psychological need to hide seems to me , well, let's just say psychologically aberrant .

Until muslims start publicly denouncing the radicals and helping authorities round them up, they will be mistrusted .

I'm not sure it's necessarily just a PR problem. Here is a PDF from the Pew Research Center surveying Muslims throughout the world on a variety of issues: http://www.pewforum.org/files/2013/04/worlds-muslims-religion-politics-society-full-report.pdf

The overwhelming majority of Muslims want Islamic Law, sharia, to be the law of the land everywhere they reside. Yet Sharia law includes laws and penalties that are out of touch with the standards and ethics of nearly all developed civilizations in the western world. Something that is pertinent to this case is that homosexuality, for instance, is punishable by death under Sharia law. Many still also support death as a reasonable penalty for leaving Islam. It ranges from 'only' 13% support in Southeastern Europe to 76% support in South Asia. There are many other eye opening figures. It's a lengthy and informative paper.

I think people are absolutely entitled to have their own beliefs, and I do believe that all people are inherently good. However, I found these statistics disconcerting as I like you, and I think of any reasonably intelligent and non bigoted individual, previously believed this was just more or less an issue of bad PR and an unfortunate number of bad apples. And to a degree it certainly is, yet on the other hand I think it's increasingly clear that there is certainly more at play than just that.

 

[russ_watters]

This could use further analysis:

I'm not sure what has happened over the past few years, but after 9/11 woke us up to make an effort to defend against it, we went something like a decade before the next on our home soil.

It may be an issue of tactics. Islamic terrorists have appeared as uncreative creatures of habit to me. They spent decades doing plane hijackings/bombings. They use bombings in the Middle East and try here, but without much luck.

Perhaps it is delusions of grandeur, that has prevented them from trying something so basic/simple, but clearly there are soft targets that provide significant opportunity and they are starting to realize it. And it will be very difficult to mitigate the risk.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

The overwhelming majority of Muslims want Islamic Law, sharia, to be the law of the land everywhere they reside. Yet Sharia law includes laws and penalties that are out of touch with the standards and ethics of nearly all developed civilizations in the western world.

The percentage of Muslims who say they want sharia to be “the official law of the land” varies
widely around the world, from fewer than one-in-ten in Azerbaijan (8%) to near unanimity in Afghanistan (99%). But solid majorities in most of the countries surveyed across the Middle East and North Africa, sub-Saharan Africa, South Asia and Southeast Asia favor the establishment of sharia, including 71% of Muslims in Nigeria, 72% in Indonesia, 74% in Egypt and 89% in the Palestinian territories.

Overwhelming percentages of Muslims in
many countries want Islamic law (sharia) to be the official law of the land, according to a worldwide survey by the Pew Research Center. But many supporters of sharia say it should apply only to their country’s Muslim population. Moreover, Muslims are not equally
comfortable with all aspects of sharia: While most favor using religious law in family and property disputes, fewer support theapplication of severe punishments – such as whippings or cutting off hands – in criminal cases. The survey also shows that Muslims differ widely in how they interpret certain aspects of sharia, including whether divorce and family planning are morally acceptable.

It seems more and more clear that this guy was internally conflicted over his own sexuality.

 

[Dotini]

It seems more and more clear that this guy was internally conflicted over his own sexuality.

But he resolved it with external conflict, as it happened. His family, wife, friends, imam and religion were of but little avail. Not to mention his employer and the multiple FBI interviews and investigations.

 

[Tolklein]

Is this particular mass shooting another example of domestic terrorism or violence like all those done at schools?

Or is it more (or less?) than that because religion and sexual heresies are involved?

Sexual heresies and religion? People will disagree with each other until the end of time, abolishment of slavery, womens rights, gay marriage, transgenders. And that's just what I can think of off the top of my head, as society changes people change with it, those that don't, we call racists,sexists, terrorists etc.

If I'm a bit loopy and disagree with your way of life I make a scene at a public gathering somewhere and everyone looks away awkwardly until security drags me away.
If I'm a bit loopy and disagree with your way of life and have access to weapons capable of doing harm to over 100 people in a relatively short space of time, the president gives another "Mass Shooting Speech" I wonder how many he would have to give before we can officially abbreviate it MSS?

 

[EnumaElish]

Just as this was a mass murder by an attacker of islamic creed, it was an attack targeting the LGBT community. From what I see and hear, elected officials have been curiously lagging in their denouncation of the latter.

 

[Dotini]

Just as this was a mass murder by an attacker of islamic creed, it was an attack targeting the LGBT community. From what I see and hear, elected officials have been curiously lagging in their denouncation of the latter.

It's a murky business but it's coming out now. Turns out he was closeted gay all along, frequenting gay bars and being denounced by his own wife and homophobic father for being gay. His internally unresolved conflicts finally prompted him to the external resolution of proclaiming fealty to ISIS and shooting down a building full of gays with a legally obtained gun. Bottom line, this incident might really have little to do with either guns or radical Islamic terrorism.

 

[russ_watters]

Just as this was a mass murder by an attacker of islamic creed, it was an attack targeting the LGBT community. From what I see and hear, elected officials have been curiously lagging in their denouncation of the latter.

I'm not really following - what should they be saying that they aren't? To me it would seem like focusing on the LGBT aspect would ignore the larger classes of people they and their loved ones belonged to.

 

[Averagesupernova]

So here is a little something to think about. There seems to be some comparison and contrasting between what a Christian might do compared to what a muslim might do. This is a fair thing to do in my opinion. Consider Tim McVeigh. Raised catholic and went to church often as a child. Killed 3 times as many as Mateen and injured 20 times as many. Not only that, he did it in a way that was sure to put himself out of harms way. I am not defending Mateen at all. As far as I am concerned he was a nut who happened to be a muslim.

 

[Evo]

I'm not really following - what should they be saying that they aren't? To me it would seem like focusing on the LGBT aspect would ignore the larger classes of people they and their loved ones belonged to.

One of the first articles I read was an interview with Mateen's father and he said that recently Mateen had seen two gay men kissing and he'd gone berserk, he hated gays. I think that Mateen's hatred of gays may have been the main driver here.

The father of the shooter who killed 50 people at a gay nightclub in Florida said his son became enraged recently when he saw two men kissing — and that may have been what sparked the worst mass shooting in US history.

http://nypost.com/2016/06/12/florida-gay-club-mass-shooter-angry-about-two-men-kissing-dad-says/

http://www.rawstory.com/2016/06/fat...-mateen-this-had-nothing-to-do-with-religion/

Now, this does not mean it had nothing to do with religion, if he was raised to believe that being gay was a sin in the eyes of god and that was why he hated gays, it could be. We have politicians like Paul Ryan that have gone on record saying that there should be no laws for hate crimes against gays.

Paul Ryan on Civil Rights
Keep DADT; no gay adoption; no need for gay hate crime laws

http://www.ontheissues.org/House/Paul_Ryan_Civil_Rights.htm

 

[russ_watters]

One of the first articles I read was an interview with Mateen's father and he said that recently Mateen had seen two gay men kissing and he'd gone berserk, he hated gays. I think that Mateen's hatred of gays may have been the main driver here.

That doesn't really answer the question: what should our elected officials be saying that they are not? Also, the issue was what people are saying about the victims, not what people are saying about the perpetrator.

We have politicians like Paul Ryan that have gone on record saying that there should be no laws against hate crimes against gays.

Not exactly germane here, but I agree. I think hate crime laws are "a Savage Hypocrisy". Please see presentation starting at 3:10 (background info the previous 3 minutes):

Americans do all sorts of hateable things besides not rounding-up all of our gays and executing them; we drink, we worship God wrong, we allow our women out in public unsupervised, etc. Fortunately, both the Orlando shooter and San Bernadino shooter are dead, so we don't have to hear the arguments in court that the Orlando massacre was more hateful because of who it targeted. IMO, everyone who was killed in the massacres was wronged equally.

 

[EnumaElish]

This boils down to effective deterrence -- assuming (one) goal of criminal law is prevention and not (merely) punishment. Conspiracy to commit murder may be another example. Law defines premeditation as a special circumstance to specifically deter planning murder. Along the lines of the so-called savage hypocrisy, I could argue that since all human life is sacred and protected by law, premedidated murder is no worse than spur of the moment murder, which may well include muggings "gone wrong." I could futher argue "defining lack of premeditation as a mitigating cause could mean that the society values the lives of victims of rage murders less than those of premeditated murders, therefore premeditation principle must be contradicting some basic tenet of law having to do with all human life valued equally."

 

[jim hardy]

One of the first articles I read was an interview with Mateen's father and he said that recently Mateen had seen two gay men kissing and he'd gone berserk, he hated gays. I think that Mateen's hatred of gays may have been the main driver here.

yet this in very same paper the very next day..
http://nypost.com/2016/06/13/shooter-used-to-visit-orlando-gay-club-use-gay-dating-apps/

They also shot down claims that Mateen had snapped after seeing two men kissing each other in public.

“That’s bullcrap, right there. No offense. That’s straight-up crap. He’s been around us,” Smith said. “Some of those people did a little more than (kiss) outside the bar … He was partying with the people who supposedly drove him to do this?”

Kevin West, another regular at Pulse, told the Los Angeles Times that Mateen used gay dating apps on a regular basis and even messaged him on a gay dating app, Jack’d.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

yet this in very same paper the very next day..
http://nypost.com/2016/06/13/shooter-used-to-visit-orlando-gay-club-use-gay-dating-apps/

I am starting to think the real driver here was his father's hatred of gays. As for the shooter, you really have to appreciate the moral convictions of a "devout Muslim" who gets hammered at gay bars. I wonder if ISIS is still cheering their hero.

I saw where the son was said to be the father's "life project". I think a family friend said that.

 

[jtbell]

An article about internalised homophobia, including comments from a Muslim gay man who once considered doing a terrorist attack himself:

http://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-36534693

 

[jim hardy]

IMHO his employer should have caught it; there were precursors...

Mateen first came to the FBI’s attention in 2013, when he was a security guard and co-workers heard him say he had connections to al Qaeda and Hezbollah, and that he hoped to martyr himself in a confrontation with the law, according to Comey. The FBI opened a preliminary investigation, which allows agents to conduct limited surveillance and searches, but not to use its most aggressive tools (like FISA or Title III warrants). The bureau used that power to run undercover agents against Mateen, search his “transactional records,” and record his conversations, Comey said.

where i worked we were 'observed' for obvious reasons(nuke plant)
i assume a security outfit that arms its people does some screening too.
This* would have got me scrutinized

Mateen's coworker, Daniel Gilroy, who requested a transfer so he wouldn't have to work with Mateen, describes him as "scary in a concerning way... He had anger management issues. Something would set him off, but the things that would set him off were always women, race or religion. [Those were] his button pushers."
http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/news/in-orlando-as-usual-domestic-violence-was-ignored-red-flag-20160613

(* Rolling Stone? Strange bedfellow for me, indeed.)

Domestic Violence in his record would have kept him from passing he NICS background check and he couldn't have bought the guns
it's a shame this gal didn't file a complaint: See 0:35 to 1 minute here

 

[Kevin McHugh]

http://chicago.cbslocal.com/2016/05/31/memorial-day-weekend-violence-shootings/

"Killing in the Name Of" Taking a human life is the worst sin a human can commit. The rationale is "justifiable" if sanctioned by government of religion. WRONG! Every time this sort of thing happens, the polis and the pundits get up on their soap boxes and tell us how evil guns are, and splash their faux outrage over the airwaves. Where is outrage over Chicago gun violence?

The commandment is "Thou shalt not kill". It doesn't say except for this or that.

Guns aren't evil, people are evil. There are c.a. 300 million guns in this country that never kill another human being. The crazies are are getting more numerous.

 

[mheslep]

...Not exactly germane here, but I agree.

So do I.

.IMO, everyone who was killed in the massacres was wronged equally.

Equal protection under the law is a founding principal of this country. It's unfortunate that it is sometimes qualified as an individual opinion.