jim hardy said:And just how is "easy access" relevant to the Orlando shooting ?
Mateen didn't have easy access, he was cleared by a psychologist to carry a gun and was issued a license.
Tobias Funke said:>>
And just how is "easy access" relevant to the Orlando shooting ?
Mateen didn't have easy access, he was cleared by a psychologist to carry a gun and was issued a license.
That seems fairly easy to me. I don't think just anybody should be allowed to have certain kinds of weapons no matter what
jim hardy said:As i said 47 posts earlier somebody is actively mining smolderers.
You don't have to press an "Ignite" button , just fan the embers.
http://wgno.com/2016/06/14/orlando-shooter-threatened-to-shoot-up-his-school-in-fifth-grade/Omar Mateen terrorized his Florida grade school by threatening to go on a shooting spree; multiple former classmates told TMZ.
The celebrity news site spoke with Mateen’s 5th-grade classmate Leslie Hall. She said Mateen told a group of kids at Mariposa Elementary he was going to bring a gun to school and kill everyone
i don't think we know just yet what it was.Ivan Seeking said:Again, this was not an ISIS attack.
Telephone records should yea or nay that oneHe made two religious pilgrimages to Saudi Arabia .About 45 minutes after Omar Mateen began shooting up Pulse nightclub in Orlando early Sunday, a News 13 producer in the city received a phone call that he says was from the killer. Matthew Gentili said he answered one of the many phone calls coming into ask about the shooting, but this one was different. “I will never forget the words he said to me,” he said. “I answered the phone as I always do: ‘News 13, this is Matt.’ And on the other end, I heard, ‘Do you know about the shooting?’” Then, a man claiming to be Mateen responded: “I’m the shooter. It’s me. I am the shooter.” Then the man said, “I did it for ISIS. I did it for the Islamic State.” At one point, the caller began speaking Arabic. Gentili asked where he was, but the man said it was “none of my [expletive] business.” Gentili said in an interview, “It was silent for a while. I asked him: ‘Is there anything else you want to say?’ He said no and hung up the phone.” Gentili was interviewed at home by FBI agents after everything was over. A managing editor at the station tracked the number back to Omar Mateen, though agents wouldn’t confirm his identity.
Ivan Seeking said:Agencies like Fox News have done a fine job of that!
jim hardy said:And just how is "easy access" relevant to the Orlando shooting ?
Mateen didn't have easy access, he was cleared by a psychologist to carry a gun and was issued a license.
lisab said:The screening was a requirement for employment as a security guard. Had he failed, he could have gone out and bought those same weapons without any psychological screening at all.
StatGuy2000 said:There has been increased speculation that Omar Mater's motive may have been fueled by his own self-hatred due to possibly being a closeted homosexual himself.
See the following link from The Daily Beast.
http://www.thedailybeast.com/articl...es-desperate-ignorant-orlando-blame-game.html
Sirwan Kajjo
June 13, 2016 4:37 PM
In pledging allegiance to the Islamic State (IS) group while in the midst of his deadly shooting spree in Orlando, Florida, Omar Mateen was displaying the radical terrorist organization's worldview..
And that, analysts said, is what sets IS apart from terrorist organizations of the past. IS philosophy, readily available on the internet, has become ingrained in thousands of jihadists worldwide. And even if there is no direct contact with IS — as was apparently the case with Mateen — the dangerous ideology can fuel waves of terrorism.
An Imam is the officiating priest in a mosque.HossamCFD said:Almost. It's Imam.
Iman is also an Arabic word, meaning faith/belief.It's a sick interpretation alright. But I'm not sure why you deem it incorrect. I'd say it's as correct/incorrect as Sufism, Quranism, Ahmadiyya or any other relatively peaceful sect of Islam.
Not trying to pick an argument about religion. My condolences to the victims, their families, the LGBT community, and the US public in general.
Bob Wolf said:He sent up warning flares and the FBI did a profile check into his activities. I still believe they sparsely investigated the magnitude of his banter.
Comey said the Bureau is reviewing those cases to see if anything was missed. “We’re also going to look hard at our own work to see whether there is something we should have done differently. So far, the honest answer is: I don’t think so. I don’t see anything in reviewing our own work that our agents should have done differently.”
Yes. That's what I said.Bob Wolf said:An Imam is the officiating priest in a mosque.
jim hardy said:I don't know where it'll go.
Other sources claim radical islamic ties
http://nation.foxnews.com/2016/06/12/orlando-massacre-gunmans-radical-ties-isis-claims-shooter-their-own-was-follower-ex-conVoice of America says this:
http://www.voanews.com/content/orla...e-potential-radicalize-from-afar/3374341.html
It's too early for me to have a strong opinion one way or the other.StatGuy2000 said:Of course, it's still early in the investigation and more information may come to light, but from all of the reports I've read thus far, the evidence thus far points more to a case of a homophobic attack from a deeply disturbed, self-hating individual (with no connection to any organization but acting entirely on his own) than an orchestrated attack directed by ISIS or similar jihadist group.
“There are strong indications of radicalization by this killer and of potential inspiration by foreign terrorism organizations,” Comey said, adding that the FBI is the lead investigative agency on this case because it is a terrorism investigation.
Probably an apt description of executions of gays by ISIS in the Middle East.StatGuy2000 said:... the evidence thus far points more to a case of a homophobic attack from a deeply disturbed, self-hating individual
There is Mateen's sworn allegiance to ISIS, joining with the groups around the world giving allegiance to ISIS, in Eygpt, in Pakistan, and most recently including Boko Haram.(with no connection to any organization but acting entirely on his own) than an orchestrated attack directed by ISIS or similar jihadist group.
mheslep said:Probably an apt description of executions of gays by ISIS in the Middle East.There is Mateen's sworn allegiance to ISIS, joining with the groups around the world giving allegiance to ISIS, in Eygpt, in Pakistan, and most recently including Boko Haram.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/nov/10/egyptian-jihadists-pledge-allegiance-isis
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...group-swears-allegiance-to-Islamic-State.html
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2015/03/11/isis-affiliates-map_n_6849418.html
Yes, agreed.StatGuy2000 said:1. First, I am well aware of executions of gays by ISIS in the Middle East. Gays are also executed/imprisoned/tortured in Saudi Arabia, who follow the very same Wahabi ideology that ISIS (and al-Qaeda) professes as well.
And this comparison is absurd. After acknowledging actions of radical Islamists (cultists?) who commit wholesale murder of homosexuals , Christians, and Jews, the comparison to the beliefs of some right-wing Christians or Orthodox Jews is absurd. These latter groups teach that homosexuality is a sin, alongside, say, prostitution. They do not teach, allow, or wink at wholesale slaughter. Mateen was, of course, not taught by fundamentalist Christians or Orthodox Jews. And BTW, neither the word hatred nor any suggestion of violence is found in the HuffPo anecdote you linked. Moral equivalence fallacy, Chomsky version: Detroit made some dangerous cars, so the US is more or less in the same bag as the Nazis.2. Second, I am well aware that fundamentalists/extremists within Islam that profess hatred against homosexuals, but the same is true of right-wing Christians and Orthodox Jews. In fact, the rhetoric used by ISIS on gays is almost exactly the same as the rhetoric used by Christian fundamentalists, particularly in the American South...
You're not alone that opinion. The NYT editorial board suggests Mateen was seduced to kill 50 people by Republicans via their opposition to gay marriage. Perhaps the NYT should have included Obama in the blame, not the progress, as he too opposed gay marriage in Mateen's formative years, especially given the best explanation for Obama's 2008 position is that he had something "to exploit" as the NYT says.So I can certainly conclude that Mateen's homophobia (possibly of the self-hating sort, given some of the reports I've read and posted where he might have been closeted himself) was influenced by Islam, but one can also make a strong claim that it was influenced by the broader culture within the United States, where hatred and intolerance is still widely expressed in many circles
Orchestration was not what you would have ruled out earlier; connection was the term you used: "with no connection to any organization..." and it is this claim with which I take issue. I also doubt Mateen was actually orchestrated by ISIS, that is, told one on one by some handler to go shoot up a bar. The point being that there is also little evidence that Boko Haram, the Egyptian and Pakistani jahadi groups are actually orchestrated by ISIS, but after their statements of fealty to same I don't see a route to saying there is "no connection" for those groups or Mateen. The connecting ideology driven by a group headquartered in Raqqa, and seen as strong by its followers, is the problem.3. Third, just because Mateen gave a statement swearing allegiance to ISIS doesn't necessarily mean that the attack was an attack orchestrated by ISIS. As of this moment, there are conflicting reports about whether Mateen had links to ISIS or not, as you can tell from my earlier posts and its reply after that. So one should not conclude anything beyond this.
4. Your posts about Egyptian and Pakistani jihadis are old news, and not relevant to the discussion at hand.
I think you are drawing too binary/exclusive of a distinction, where an attack is either directed by ISIS or is totally independent of but "inspired by ISIS" and therefore "no link" or "entirely on his own". In fact, "Inspired by ISIS" is exactly what ISIS is after in their global Jihad and what today separates them from and makes them a more serious threat than al Qaeda.StatGuy2000 said:3. Third, just because Mateen gave a statement swearing allegiance to ISIS doesn't necessarily mean that the attack was an attack orchestrated by ISIS. As of this moment, there are conflicting reports about whether Mateen had links to ISIS or not, as you can tell from my earlier posts and its reply after that. So one should not conclude anything beyond this.
http://www.cnn.com/2015/11/25/opinions/rogers-paris-attacks/CNN said:ISIS represents not a new threat, but the latest incarnation of the continuing threat of militant Islam. Whereas al Qaeda operates as a traditional terrorist network with cells reporting to an established hierarchy, ISIS is far more opaque and decentralized. ISIS is a network of influence; al Qaeda is a network of command.
[emphasis added]
russ_watters said:I think you are drawing too binary/exclusive of a distinction, where an attack is either directed by ISIS or is totally independent of but "inspired by ISIS" and therefore "no link" or "entirely on his own". In fact, "Inspired by ISIS" is exactly what ISIS is after in their global Jihad and what today separates them from and makes them a more serious threat than al Qaeda.
http://www.cnn.com/2015/11/25/opinions/rogers-paris-attacks/
It is worth remembering that we've been at war with Islamic terrorism for some 40 years, and their tactics are evolving to keep the threat high.
mheslep said:Orchestration was not what you would have ruled out earlier; connection was the term you used: "with no connection to any organization..." and it is this claim with which I take issue. I also doubt Mateen was actually orchestrated by ISIS, that is, told one on one by some handler to go shoot up a bar. The point being that there is also little evidence that Boko Haram, the Egyptian and Pakistani jahadi groups are actually orchestrated by ISIS, but after their statements of fealty to same I don't see a route to saying there is "no connection" for those groups or Mateen. The connecting ideology driven by a group headquartered in Raqqa, and seen as strong by its followers, is the problem.
StatGuy2000 said:The question I would have is this -- if ISIS did not exist, would those who carried out attacks under its name found another source of "inspiration" to do what they do anyways? We may never know the answer to this; however, my suspicions are that if people are prepared psychologically to kill, then it would not take much for them to find inspiration in anything that justifies their state of mind (caveat -- I'm not a psychologist or psychiatrist, so my opinions are purely speculative).
They went through the motions of prayer but didn't shed their inner rage.and achieve humility with inner peace , which i believe is what religious ritual is intended to do for us.EXTREMISTS
Orlando shooter Omar Mateen and Moner Mohammad Abu-Salha, believed to be the first American suicide bomber in Syria, were on the fringes of the Islamic Center community, according to Imam Syed Shafeeq Rahman and other mosque members.
Mateen's Afghani heritage and age — at 29 he was more than 10 years younger than the typical adults in attendance — may have contributed to his detachment, according to Ruiz.
"There's an absence in the community of older teens to people in their 40s. He was very unusual," Ruiz said about Mateen. "After Friday noon prayers, the older people stay and socialize. He did so very few times. Usually, as soon as prayer concluded, he got back in his car and went to work."
Abu-Salha kept an even lower profile; most of the congregation knew his family but probably not his name until 2014 when he carried out the alleged bombing in Syria, Ruiz said.
Bob Wolf said:It's a tragedy of immense proportion. But, guns are something we have the right to own. It's all in the sale of firearms and the background check. It MUST get tougher and much more thorough. I received my CCW permit over 2 yrs ago. I have not fired my weapon since. A person can own a gun and not kill other people with it.
He sent up warning flares and the FBI did a profile check into his activities. I still believe they sparsely investigated the magnitude of his banter. God Speed to those killed or injured.
I'm aware. That's not what we are discussing. We are discussing how they wage that war.StatGuy2000 said:First of all, all jihadist groups operating throughout the world, including al-Qaeda and ISIS, have as their primary aim global holy war (i.e. jihad) against forces they identify as being the enemies of Islam -- whether that would be Western nations or Muslims who disagree with their particular version of their ideology (who in jihadist's eyes are equivalent to apostates and traitors to their faith).
I'm aware of that as well. But again, that isn't what we are discussing. We're discussing the ISIS context of the Orlando shooting: we're discussing how ISIS attacks *us*, not how they operate in the Middle East.Second, contrary to the CNN article, both al-Qaeda and ISIS (i.e. ISIL, Islamic State, Daesh -- all variant names for the same group, which, keep in mind, derives from and is an offshoot of al-Qaeda) are both networks of command and networks of influence. In actual fact, counterterrorism experts have pointed out that ISIS has a clear command structure...
Agreed: it just isn't the distinction you were making and in my perception what some in the media/politics are trying to make. You said:Third, there are various news sources where ISIS has both coordinated attacks and inspired individuals to carry out attacks, and there is a clear distinction made between these.
Right, that's where we differ. I think the "inspired by ISIS" campaign matters and is partly responsible for the significant increase in terrorist activity in the US in the past several years. There are identifiable eras in Islamic extremist terrorism in the US, as you can see in the timeline:The question I would have is this -- if ISIS did not exist, would those who carried out attacks under its name found another source of "inspiration" to do what they do anyways? We may never know the answer to this; however, my suspicions are that if people are prepared psychologically to kill, then it would not take much for them to find inspiration in anything that justifies their state of mind.
That is quite a provocative claim, so yes, I would like to see your strong substantiation of it. Specifically, what "circles" was he "influenced" by and how?...one can also make a strong claim that it was influenced by the broader culture within the United States, where hatred and intolerance is still widely expressed in many circles...
russ_watters said:I'm aware of that as well. But again, that isn't what we are discussing. We're discussing the ISIS context of the Orlando shooting: we're discussing how ISIS attacks *us*, not how they operate in the Middle East.
My main point here is related to previous discussion that appears aimed to paint this as primarily an anti-LGBT hate crime and downplay the Islamic extremism aspect as just an excuse that the shooter chose arbitrarily. The reason it is a mistake IMO is because if we act based on that spin of the motive, the next time it happens we won't be able to stop it because we may be looking in the wrong place. If we pay better attention to that aspect, our odds of stopping the next attack improve. On the flip-side, some of the success we had over the past 10 years in stopping attacks was because al Qaeda attacks tended to more tightly coordinated and therefore left a larger trail to follow.
That is quite a provocative claim, so yes, I would like to see your strong substantiation of it. Specifically, what "circles" was he "influenced" by and how?
russ_watters said:Statguy, if we can't take the self-professed ISIS inspired Islamic extremist terrorist at his word about his motivation during his dying act, then we are delving into inherrently unprovable conspiracy theory.
And again, I share mhslep's incredulity that you could suggest with a straight face that a self-identified Islamic terrorist was instead a closet Christian identifier! It's nonsensical.
But should I take your new words "not inconceivable" to be acknowledgment that "strong claim" was a bad claim and you are retracting it?
I don't. And I was going to ask, as a moderator, that you reign-in your imagination here. Bowing-out is a good alternative.StatGuy2000 said:[BTW, this is my last post in this thread, and I have no intention to respond any further. If anyone else wants to discuss this further, please send me a PM.]
StatGuy2000 said:The problem with your above assertion is that the evidence thus far is pointing to an anti-LGBT hate crime rather than Islamic extremism
StatGuy2000 said:First of all, from all the reports I've read thus far about this case, Mateen was brought up in a conservative Muslim home, where homosexuality was considered a sin. Furthermore, Mateen had grown up in St. Lucie County, Florida, and I have friends and family members in Florida who informed me that there is a sizeable evangelical Christian community there, and TV broadcasts from televangelists were not uncommon. And these Christian televangelists have often condemned homosexuals in much the same language that extremist Muslims have done so. Given this cultural milieu, is it not inconceivable that Mateen could have been influenced by these broader forces.
me too.russ_watters said:I share mhslep's incredulity that you could suggest with a straight face that a self-identified Islamic terrorist was instead a closet Christian identifier! It's nonsensical.
Not all muslims profess that, though...The Muslim world is not exactly known for its embrace of sexuality of any kind. There are 10 countries where homosexuality is still punishable by death. Mateen’s parents came to the U.S. from Afghanistan, which is on that list despite 15 years of U.S. nation-building.
Islamic law advocates that gays be killed. It is important to recognize that this view is not exclusive to ISIL, al-Qaeda, or other terrorist groups. It is part of sharia law, which draws on Islam's primary texts. In one narration, referring to same-sex intercourse, the prophet Mohammed said, “Wherever you find those committing http://www.usc.edu/org/cmje/religious-texts/hadith/abudawud/038-sat.php, kill the one doing it and the one to whom it is done."
Identifying Mateen’s religion and cultural background as contributing factors to his actions offends some and might be interpreted as bigoted, even racist. After all, most Muslims are good people and ignore passages in the Quran advocating violence. Most choose to live and to let live. But this does not change the fact that violence against gays is blatantly sanctioned by Islamic scripture and advocated by some of the most respected scholars of the faith.
"Death is the sentence. There’s nothing to be embarrassed about this. Death is the sentence," British-born Farrokh Sekaleshfar, a medical doctor and recognized Shiite scholar who visited an Orlando area mosque in March, said in 2013. Sheikh Yusuf al-Qaradawi, one of Sunni Islam’s most influential sharia jurists, has opined that “while such punishments may seem cruel, they have been suggested to maintain the purity of the Islamic society and to keep it clean of perverted elements."
Rahman said that a basic tenet of Islam is that all creatures are the family of Allah. He didn’t answer directly whether he felt homosexuality was a sin, but said that in cases where people live outside the principles his faith prescibes, Islam - like Christianity and Judaism - calls on believers to pray for others.
“There is nothing outside the door that says you can’t come in and worship God and be here and pray if you are gay,” he said.