What is the relationship between magnetic force and electric force?

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the nature of magnetic force and its relationship with electric force. Participants explore conceptual, philosophical, and mathematical aspects of these forces, questioning their understanding and the underlying principles that govern them.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Conceptual clarification
  • Debate/contested
  • Mathematical reasoning
  • Meta-discussion

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants express uncertainty about the fundamental nature of magnetic force, questioning what it truly represents beyond its calculable effects.
  • One participant suggests that magnetic force arises from interactions between the magnetic properties of charges, but this does not fully address the philosophical questions surrounding its existence.
  • Another participant notes that while they accept electric and gravitational forces, they find it harder to conceptualize magnetic forces, particularly due to their background in chemistry.
  • A suggestion is made to explore electrodynamics, where electric and magnetic fields are unified, as a means to gain better understanding, although it may require significant mathematical effort.
  • It is mentioned that in Special Relativity, magnetism can be derived from electric laws, indicating a deeper connection between the two forces.
  • Some participants acknowledge that electric and magnetic fields are models and express a need to accept the existence of moving electric charges to better understand magnetic forces.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants generally express a lack of consensus regarding the fundamental nature of magnetic force and its relationship to electric force. Multiple competing views and uncertainties remain throughout the discussion.

Contextual Notes

Participants highlight limitations in their understanding, particularly regarding the philosophical implications of forces and the models used to describe them. There is also mention of the need for further study in electrodynamics and special relativity to clarify these concepts.

becauseican8
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Noob, apologies to all.

What is magnetic force? I can calculate it, and know that it is perpendicular to the motion of an electric force, but what is it? Just because I can calculate it does not mean that I know what I am calculating.

Thanks
 
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becauseican8 said:
Noob, apologies to all.

What is magnetic force? I can calculate it, and know that it is perpendicular to the motion of an electric force, but what is it? Just because I can calculate it does not mean that I know what I am calculating.

Thanks

A force is just an influence that causes a change in an object. A magnetic force is simply a force arising from an interaction between the magnetic properties of charges. Does that help?
 
becauseican8 said:
Noob, apologies to all.

What is magnetic force? I can calculate it, and know that it is perpendicular to the motion of an electric force, but what is it? Just because I can calculate it does not mean that I know what I am calculating.

Thanks
I believe that you have just asked a question that appeals to the subject of the philosophy of science. Such questions are not about the description of nature but on the why's of nature. Scientists have not been able to explain why we observe but has ony been able to describe what we observe. While we can describe the force on a charged particle we still don't know why there is a force exists or why it does what it does.
 
Drakkith: that does actually help to put things in perspective, I suppose I have accepted the reason for other forces while not understanding where they arise from either.

Boston Guy: fair enough, I think that I have simply accepted electric and gravitational forces, but haven't quite accepted magnetic forces yet. Obviously I know they exist, they are directly observable, it is just much harder to envision because I have a chemistry background. Almost everything I've been exposed to so far has been positive and negative electric charges, and even when we did a magnetism experiment, we talked about it in terms of charged ions moving with the magnetic field.
 
One way that might help is to go over electrodynamics, where the electric and magnetic fields are sort of unified into one single electromagnetic field tensor. It involves a bit of maths and some time, but it does shed some light on what's going on. In fact, it involves a lot of maths and a lot of time.
 
In Special Relativity, the laws of magnetism pop up naturally from the laws of electricity.
You can check out Griffith's introduction to electrodynamics, Ch 10...
 
becauseican8 said:
Drakkith: that does actually help to put things in perspective, I suppose I have accepted the reason for other forces while not understanding where they arise from either.

Boston Guy: fair enough, I think that I have simply accepted electric and gravitational forces, but haven't quite accepted magnetic forces yet. Obviously I know they exist, they are directly observable, it is just much harder to envision because I have a chemistry background. Almost everything I've been exposed to so far has been positive and negative electric charges, and even when we did a magnetism experiment, we talked about it in terms of charged ions moving with the magnetic field.
It's true that we do not know what exactly is going on "in reality"; electric and magnetic fields are just models. However, a magnetic field is itself an effect of moving electric charges. So, if you you can intuitively "accept" or understand the existence of such charges (at least as a model) and the fact they can move, then the intuitive understanding of magnetic force isn't far away. :smile:

For the more philosophical aspects, see also the following thread from post #40:
https://www.physicsforums.com/showthread.php?t=510552&page=3
 
harrylin said:
It's true that we do not know what exactly is going on "in reality"; electric and magnetic fields are just models. However, a magnetic field is itself an effect of moving electric charges. So, if you you can intuitively "accept" or understand the existence of such charges (at least as a model) and the fact they can move, then the intuitive understanding of magnetic force isn't far away. :smile:

True, I think that I just need to do as Mikey suggests and practice a little. Morgoth, I don't have the book but if it's required for a class or I find it at a good price I will definitely take a look.
 
I just put that book's name because I have it...
I guess any book that has to do with electrodynamics, and contains special relativity, will have it...
 

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