What is the significance of the newly discovered pentaquark at LHCb?

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Discussion Overview

The discussion centers around the significance of the newly discovered pentaquark at LHCb, exploring its implications for particle physics, particularly in the context of the quark model and the Standard Model. Participants examine the experimental evidence, theoretical predictions, and the nature of exotic hadrons, including the challenges in interpreting the findings.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Debate/contested
  • Mathematical reasoning

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants describe pentaquarks as particles composed of four quarks and one antiquark, suggesting that this discovery could represent a new class of hadrons if confirmed.
  • There is a discussion on the experimental background, specifically the decay process observed by LHCb, which led to the identification of a peak in the invariant mass distribution of the J/ψp pair.
  • Arguments supporting the pentaquark interpretation include the narrowness of the peak, the shape of the Argand diagram, and the quark content required for the observed decay.
  • Others question how the Standard Model accommodates the existence of five or four quark states, noting that traditional representations do not include these configurations.
  • Some participants express skepticism about the significance of the peak, citing past instances where similar peaks did not correspond to new particles.
  • There is a debate on whether the observed states are "real pentaquarks" or merely bound states of other particles, with no clear consensus on the implications of this distinction.
  • Concerns are raised about distinguishing between different decay processes and the nature of the states involved, particularly regarding the lifetime of the pentaquark and its decay products.
  • Participants highlight the importance of further experimental data and analysis to clarify the nature of the observed structures in the mass spectrum.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express a mix of support and skepticism regarding the pentaquark discovery. While some find the evidence compelling, others remain unconvinced and question the interpretations. Multiple competing views exist on the nature of the observed states and their implications for the quark model.

Contextual Notes

Participants note the limitations in understanding the implications of the findings due to unresolved questions about the quark model and the nature of the observed peaks in the mass distribution. The discussion reflects ongoing uncertainty and the need for further experimental validation.

  • #31
@michael vdg

Please, let us not add the word "glubola" into particle physics. That sounds way too much like a truly dreadful disease.
 
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  • #32
ohwilleke said:
@michel_vdg

Please, let us not add the word "glubola" into particle physics. That sounds way too much like a truly dreadful disease.

Haha ... well what can one expect when a Pentaquark collides with a Proton? Would it be possible that it fuses into 'some thing' with 8 quarks? ... would it start to take the shape of a string / worm / ring / knot particle and perhaps start to fuse with the other protons and neutrons in for example an iron nucleus ... or would it be more like a boiling soup? ... what would be the charge of 8+ quark bundle be?
 
  • #33
It would look similar to proton+proton collisions. At high energy and momentum exchange you get a bunch of new particles, at low energy or momentum exchange the inner structure of the particles does not matter much.
 
  • #34
mfb said:
It would look similar to proton+proton collisions. At high energy and momentum exchange you get a bunch of new particles, at low energy or momentum exchange the inner structure of the particles does not matter much.
How do we know that it would be a 'closed-system' like a proton? Would it have a positive charge? Could it have a more positive charge of 1.66, or a lesser one of 0.66, or do quark #4 and #5 also cancel each other out and the total stays 1 ... how does that work ... how can we find out? What would the interaction be between a pentaquark-proton (is it a proton?) with charge +1.3 charge vs. a regular proton with +1 charge, would there be some attraction because of the imbalance or just some more repulsion ... what with the weak- and strong force?
 
  • #35
Michel_vdg said:
How do we know that it would be a 'closed-system' like a proton? Would it have a positive charge? Could it have a more positive charge of 1.66, or a lesser one of 0.66, or do quark #4 and #5 also cancel each other out and the total stays 1 ... how does that work ... how can we find out? What would the interaction be between a pentaquark-proton (is it a proton?) with charge +1.3 charge vs. a regular proton with +1 charge, would there be some attraction because of the imbalance or just some more repulsion ... what with the weak- and strong force?
And how would you have 1.66 charge? or 0.66?
 
  • #36
ChrisVer said:
And how would you have 1.66 charge? or 0.66?
Quarks have fractional electric charge values of either 1⁄3 or 2⁄3 times the elementary charge ... so when you have 5 of them within this new 'proton' than what is the total charge or what are the individual charges ... I used those numbers more in a figuratively speaking sense.
 
  • #37
Do you think you could obtain a colorless bound state by just adding arbitrarily 5 quarks? (Try 3 \otimes 3 \otimes 3 \otimes 3 \otimes 3)
 
  • #38
ChrisVer said:
Do you think you could obtain a colorless bound state by just adding arbitrarily 5 quarks?

Oh, I didn't know if they were saying that the Pentaquark was 'colorless' ... it says in the article:

"The quarks could be tightly bound, or they could also be loosely bound in meson-baryon molecule, in which color-neutral meson and baryon feel a residual strong force similar to the one that binds nucleons together within nuclei. " http://lhcb-public.web.cern.ch/lhcb-public/Welcome.html#Penta


Pc_particleLHCb_s.png
Pc_moleculeLHCb_s.png


Edit: But thus that mean that the positive proton charge is just 1 when it is colorless even with 5 quarks, just like a normal proton with only 3 quarks?
 
  • #39
even in that case (which OK somehow tells you that it's colorless since it implies 3 \otimes 3 \otimes 3 \otimes 3 \otimes \bar{3}) how would you add the charges of a hadron and meson (none has fractional charge) to obtain fractional total charge in the end? :smile: I hope this helped.

PS. But it can have more positive charge, like +2...
 
  • #40
ChrisVer said:
even in that case (which OK somehow tells you that it's colorless since it implies 3 \otimes 3 \otimes 3 \otimes 3 \otimes \bar{3}) how would you add the charges of a hadron and meson (none has fractional charge) to obtain fractional total charge in the end? :smile: I hope this helped.

I don't know ... those numbers were more to ask the question ... see the edit that I added:

"... thus that mean that the positive proton charge is just 1 when it is colorless even with 5 quarks, just like a normal proton with only 3 quarks?"

It also comes down to a previous question and mfb's reply where he says that it would act just like a 'regular' proton.
 
  • #41
It has to be color-neutral to be a hadron. This also implies that it has to have an integer charge. The discovered particle has a charge of 1 (or -1 for its antiparticle).

Are you asking about elastic collisions via the electromagnetic interaction? Those are independent of the substructure of the hadron, that should be obvious.
 
  • #42
Michel_vdg said:
"... thus that mean that the positive proton charge is just 1 when it is colorless even with 5 quarks, just like a normal proton with only 3 quarks?"

I may be misinterpreting your question, but as I mentioned you can have other charges too...
In the case of the discovered particle u u d \bar{c}c this happens to be a +1 charged particle.
I don't see the reason why the u u d \bar{c} s cannot exist (which would have a charge 0)

As for the 5 quarks, I wouldn't call it similar to proton (or a proton excited state)... it's a little different.
 

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