- #31
Drachir
- 40
- 0
Life is its own purpose.
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The discussion centers on the existential crisis surrounding the meaning of life and the perceived futility of existence. Participants express frustration with both religious and atheistic frameworks, questioning their ability to provide lasting significance. The conversation highlights feelings of despair about mortality, the monotony of daily life, and the high rates of suicide in developed countries, suggesting a disconnect between societal success and personal fulfillment. Many argue that traditional beliefs fail to address the inherent meaninglessness of life, leading to a search for alternative perspectives. Ultimately, the dialogue reflects a deep philosophical inquiry into the nature of existence and the search for purpose amidst overwhelming uncertainty.
- #32
alexsok
- 123
- 0
Ok a follow-up question. What I fail to understand is that how come some people are in a constant state of battle with nature, sometimes winning and attaining emotional stability, happiness, lots of money, lots of women, etc etc... while others just kill themselves if they fail once (or keep on living in poverty, emotional upheaveal, distress, depression, etc). So what's the difference between these two personality types? Can you say that one was weaker than the other in the context of "meaning of life" or is it simply non-sensical?
How can you judge a bum for instance and a multi-billionaire? To the universe they are all just a ramdom composition of atoms, but out here where we live, one is judged as being "strong, composed, equianimous, successful personality" while the other is judged as a "loser".
In the end we will all be dead, perhaps that high-rolling gonzo before that street-ravaging bum, so what's the point of anyone for that matter judging anyone else? An individual is all alone out there, he either finds the meaning of life and gets on with his life (perhaps attaining happiness, perhaps not) as society wants him to or he kills himself and society bemoans his abruptly cut life.
The universe doesn't make sense to me guys, this is the problem. We are a microscopical speck of dust even in the context of the milky-way and yet still, we are competing with one another on that tiny patch called Earth for no other reason but to attain happiness that is meaningless globally.
Of course none of it (trees, buildings, governments, etc) has any meaning, it's just a category of language, but how can one live with that when the mind is desperate for an answer?
The problem is that for me the meaning of life is no simply a philosphical discussion that is entertaining to delve into now and then, but it's essential for me to land at least on the correct track so i'd know that whatever it is I'm doing here is not wasted, and since everything points to it being wasted (and if death doesn't destroy me, that still seems meaningless to me), then i see no reason to keep on living.
You see society names people who seek for the meaning of life as "lost", "psychologically deplete" and "depressed" (and society is us multiplied by any number of individuals and establishments, not some super-natural force) and even though I won't deny that I've been in any of these situations numerous times and I can alternate between them, I look at myself not as an individual but as a recycled entity for the continuation of my generation and for the perpetuation of my genes (and since the universe collapses upon itself, that wouldn't be all that perpetual now would it?) and that's insulting, no matter if I was designed that way or not. Why not just design me as someone who blindly follows the herd and never asks these nerve-rattling questions? Might seem to be foolish, but at least in that case one could attain untainted happiness at whatever he does and never inquire about anything (and since I'm inquiring, why is the universe keeping the answer to itself?)
I guess that's why they coined the "Ignorance is bliss" aphorism.
It's tough to formulate a question such as this whilst the mind is so limited and the thoughts barely graze the surface of the real thing.
How can you judge a bum for instance and a multi-billionaire? To the universe they are all just a ramdom composition of atoms, but out here where we live, one is judged as being "strong, composed, equianimous, successful personality" while the other is judged as a "loser".
In the end we will all be dead, perhaps that high-rolling gonzo before that street-ravaging bum, so what's the point of anyone for that matter judging anyone else? An individual is all alone out there, he either finds the meaning of life and gets on with his life (perhaps attaining happiness, perhaps not) as society wants him to or he kills himself and society bemoans his abruptly cut life.
The universe doesn't make sense to me guys, this is the problem. We are a microscopical speck of dust even in the context of the milky-way and yet still, we are competing with one another on that tiny patch called Earth for no other reason but to attain happiness that is meaningless globally.
Of course none of it (trees, buildings, governments, etc) has any meaning, it's just a category of language, but how can one live with that when the mind is desperate for an answer?
The problem is that for me the meaning of life is no simply a philosphical discussion that is entertaining to delve into now and then, but it's essential for me to land at least on the correct track so i'd know that whatever it is I'm doing here is not wasted, and since everything points to it being wasted (and if death doesn't destroy me, that still seems meaningless to me), then i see no reason to keep on living.
You see society names people who seek for the meaning of life as "lost", "psychologically deplete" and "depressed" (and society is us multiplied by any number of individuals and establishments, not some super-natural force) and even though I won't deny that I've been in any of these situations numerous times and I can alternate between them, I look at myself not as an individual but as a recycled entity for the continuation of my generation and for the perpetuation of my genes (and since the universe collapses upon itself, that wouldn't be all that perpetual now would it?) and that's insulting, no matter if I was designed that way or not. Why not just design me as someone who blindly follows the herd and never asks these nerve-rattling questions? Might seem to be foolish, but at least in that case one could attain untainted happiness at whatever he does and never inquire about anything (and since I'm inquiring, why is the universe keeping the answer to itself?)
I guess that's why they coined the "Ignorance is bliss" aphorism.
It's tough to formulate a question such as this whilst the mind is so limited and the thoughts barely graze the surface of the real thing.
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- #33
sleepsleep
- 21
- 0
whats da point of life
below just my personal opinion, (~ plez ignore if it doesn't suit you :) and happy good luck)
life = mean, we (as a human) able to listen, hear, speak, move, smell, taste, and the MOST IMPORTANT is the ability to think, to reason to be logical
life on Earth is short ~ we could die anytime anyday anyhow. try closed ur eyes now and imagine you would die in the next 10 seconds.
how we know what is good and what is bad ~ i called it human nature. once our ability to think is mature (usually around age 13 or above), we would start making our own decision. what to wear, what to buy, where to go and etc.
to know the life is to know how tiny we are. there are infinity knowledge that we couldn't possible to understand. (it is like would you still eat, if you know you would get hungry later?)
the problem is, we felt "enjoy" during the process to live.
and the feeling is contradict, you only know happy unless you know what is sad. the more you know, the more you should know how tiny you are and to understand there is a power (we call it God) that governs all these systems.
the purpose of living is to return the human itself to the first nature, the day before Adam and Hawa ate the "stuff" that forbiden by God and thus being sent down on earth. (the preffered state of human by God)
life is a challenge, to tell God that we could still be obedient to God, be a good human, willing to sacrifice) athough our mind has the ability to think something bad and we would fight our way to be the "best" human on earth.
life is not easy, coz human could easily selfish, greedy, boastful, want to show off and etc..
imagine the life on Earth like paradise, no war, no hatred, everybody happy, sharing, easy going, no killing and everybody appreaciate to God.
even if one yell "what is the point of life" several thousand times, it just wouldn't work.
the greater the knowledge we got, the more deeper we could understand about the life.
why you are here, you are here for a "reason", if you analyze all the things behind you, you would know every existence have its own reason. Why u got one head, not 2, 2 hands, 1 mouth, 2 eyes, 2 ears? all these are with reasons.
why we couldn't understand the reasons, ~ it is because we haven't reach the state we are able to comprehend the reason.
the prophets are real, they exist in history and they are messengers from God.
so, what you need to do :)
purify urself, be a better person, try reach your next level of human. the more you understand urself, the more "hidden test" you would see in ur life.
a + b = c
you need to know a and b in order to know c (the point of life).
if you are selfish, you would still selfish even after you die. The death wouldn't change you automatically into a good person. you would be like that, as long as you still has the soul.
so, change the bad side of us now, before it gets more complex later after we dead.
ps: you is not you, you is human and me.
sincerely,
sleepsleep.
below just my personal opinion, (~ plez ignore if it doesn't suit you :) and happy good luck)
life = mean, we (as a human) able to listen, hear, speak, move, smell, taste, and the MOST IMPORTANT is the ability to think, to reason to be logical
life on Earth is short ~ we could die anytime anyday anyhow. try closed ur eyes now and imagine you would die in the next 10 seconds.
how we know what is good and what is bad ~ i called it human nature. once our ability to think is mature (usually around age 13 or above), we would start making our own decision. what to wear, what to buy, where to go and etc.
to know the life is to know how tiny we are. there are infinity knowledge that we couldn't possible to understand. (it is like would you still eat, if you know you would get hungry later?)
the problem is, we felt "enjoy" during the process to live.
and the feeling is contradict, you only know happy unless you know what is sad. the more you know, the more you should know how tiny you are and to understand there is a power (we call it God) that governs all these systems.
the purpose of living is to return the human itself to the first nature, the day before Adam and Hawa ate the "stuff" that forbiden by God and thus being sent down on earth. (the preffered state of human by God)
life is a challenge, to tell God that we could still be obedient to God, be a good human, willing to sacrifice) athough our mind has the ability to think something bad and we would fight our way to be the "best" human on earth.
life is not easy, coz human could easily selfish, greedy, boastful, want to show off and etc..
imagine the life on Earth like paradise, no war, no hatred, everybody happy, sharing, easy going, no killing and everybody appreaciate to God.
even if one yell "what is the point of life" several thousand times, it just wouldn't work.
the greater the knowledge we got, the more deeper we could understand about the life.
why you are here, you are here for a "reason", if you analyze all the things behind you, you would know every existence have its own reason. Why u got one head, not 2, 2 hands, 1 mouth, 2 eyes, 2 ears? all these are with reasons.
why we couldn't understand the reasons, ~ it is because we haven't reach the state we are able to comprehend the reason.
the prophets are real, they exist in history and they are messengers from God.
so, what you need to do :)
purify urself, be a better person, try reach your next level of human. the more you understand urself, the more "hidden test" you would see in ur life.
a + b = c
you need to know a and b in order to know c (the point of life).
if you are selfish, you would still selfish even after you die. The death wouldn't change you automatically into a good person. you would be like that, as long as you still has the soul.
so, change the bad side of us now, before it gets more complex later after we dead.
ps: you is not you, you is human and me.
sincerely,
sleepsleep.
- #34
octelcogopod
- 560
- 0
alexsok said:
The problem is that one is following what they believe will make them happy/give them purpose in life, and the other one feels he fails to do this.
One can say the other was weaker, depending on how the bum ended up where he did. If he had extremely bad luck, then it may not be his fault, but if he just dug himself into a hole, then it is, maybe.
It all depends on each person.
That's simply our competitive instinct combined with our emotions.
When we see someone who "fails at life" we automatically assume that he doesn't have the strength, the courage or the willpower to do anything.
And if he does, he's too dumb to do so.
Judgement isn't something which you are given prvilidge to do, it is your right as a human being and part of the whole "free will" thing.
When someone is judged, it is based on the fact that anyone can think whatever they want about whoever/whatever they want at any time, without anybody doing anything about it.
You can't really judge the universe based on a few organisms thoughts on what you call a "microscopical speck of dust."
Furthermore life doesn't have any purpose, you apply any purpose you want, your existence, and any living things existence is neutral, and random.
The mind need not be desperate for an answer, once one realizes that the only answer can come from yourself.
The universe, as I said earlier, is neutral, it is neither evil nor good, it has no thought, no meaning and no purpose, the only thought, meaning and purpose exist in living beings, so in a way, you can forge the universe and its purpose into anything you want.
I can tell that you are depressed, and this is usually because of a disorder, sometimes a chemical in the brain can be out of balance, which is giving you these thoughts.
I suggest you get professional help, both for your own good, but also to realize that all this hopelessness is all in your mind, it doesn't need to be this way.
That's the thing, we are blessed for being given the power to question our existence.
Ignorance is NOT bliss.
If we didn't jhave this power, we would indeed be slaves, nothing more than followers of the herd.
YOU have the power to free yourself from this mentality, YOU have the power to do what EVER you want.
Choose to use that power.
- #35
alexsok
- 123
- 0
Sometimes if you choose this power you become the opposite of what you desired - a pariah, an outcast, an alienated loner, is that what you'd suggest someone to do?
Now about the depressed thing. NO. that's the whole point I'm NOT depressed. Suicidal people usually act on a whim in a state of affect, whilst I've been like that for a long time.
As a matter of fact, there was a period in the past where I've been constantly depressed and I've been administered Prozac (or a variation of it) that I took for about an year, but then I noticed that not a whole lot had changed - it alleviated my mood swings a little bit, but I estimated the cons and prons and chose against using it (which took a stormy period of side-effects until everything went back to normal).
The point is that once again, what I originally thought was depression turned out to be just ME. That's who I am. And the fact that my mind is desperate for an answer has nothing to do with it. Yes, it seems as if the universe is completely oblivious to pain and questioning, but what if one doesn't want to accept this state of nature?
Then what you're telling me is to accept some basic truths about the universe and learn to adapt to it. Sure I can do it, but the worries will remain with me till the last breath I take on my deathbed and I will never find it satisfactory.
p.s
Also, how can one be NOT depressed in the face of one's complete annihilation is beyond me.
Now about the depressed thing. NO. that's the whole point I'm NOT depressed. Suicidal people usually act on a whim in a state of affect, whilst I've been like that for a long time.
As a matter of fact, there was a period in the past where I've been constantly depressed and I've been administered Prozac (or a variation of it) that I took for about an year, but then I noticed that not a whole lot had changed - it alleviated my mood swings a little bit, but I estimated the cons and prons and chose against using it (which took a stormy period of side-effects until everything went back to normal).
The point is that once again, what I originally thought was depression turned out to be just ME. That's who I am. And the fact that my mind is desperate for an answer has nothing to do with it. Yes, it seems as if the universe is completely oblivious to pain and questioning, but what if one doesn't want to accept this state of nature?
Then what you're telling me is to accept some basic truths about the universe and learn to adapt to it. Sure I can do it, but the worries will remain with me till the last breath I take on my deathbed and I will never find it satisfactory.
p.s
Also, how can one be NOT depressed in the face of one's complete annihilation is beyond me.
- #36
selfAdjoint
Staff Emeritus
Gold Member
Dearly Missed
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alexsok said:
Well this dilemma is known as cognitive dissonance, and a very common response is to tell onesself a story that reduces the dissonance. You know Aesop's story of the fox and the grapes: after jumping futilely in the hot sun all afternoon to get the grapes dangling out of his reach, the fox tells himself the grapes were probably sour anyway.
This is an example of a story that DOESN'T relieve the dissonance; what kind of dummy sweats all afternoon to get sour grapes? And fails? A better story is Holy Grapes. The fox says to himself, "If such a clever fellow as I was unable to get those grapes they must have been under powerful protection! I'll just bet they were sacred to some god! What a clever fellow I truly am to break off before I profaned those grapes and called down the wrath of the god on myself!
See how it works? And people do it all unconsciously, as psychologists have demonstrated.
- #37
alexsok
- 123
- 0
selfAdjoint
Thanks m8, didn't know about that ;)
The thing is that no matter how much convincing it takes (and even if one is able to convince himself completely), nature will still remain just that... nature.. and the universe will remain in it's former state (I mean nothing had changed outside of our little planet on a cosmic scale since the universe was created) so this technique can be considered a mitigating mind-exercise.
But think about m8, what it truly means to be dissatisfied with the way the Universe operates and have absolultey no means, even with billion-years advanced technological progress to change any of this?
Even in our day and age, where billion dollars corporations are researching various means of harnessing the "dark matter" or "dark energy" of the cosmos for rocket-propulsion or other purposes, all we do is attempt to use what's already out there. No one can ever know the true nature of anything or change that nature. We can barely change the environment on our little planet (which doesn't come easily mind you) and on a cosmic scale our efforts seem pokey and wasteful... which is very sad for me which is why I created this topic.
Thanks m8, didn't know about that ;)
The thing is that no matter how much convincing it takes (and even if one is able to convince himself completely), nature will still remain just that... nature.. and the universe will remain in it's former state (I mean nothing had changed outside of our little planet on a cosmic scale since the universe was created) so this technique can be considered a mitigating mind-exercise.
But think about m8, what it truly means to be dissatisfied with the way the Universe operates and have absolultey no means, even with billion-years advanced technological progress to change any of this?
Even in our day and age, where billion dollars corporations are researching various means of harnessing the "dark matter" or "dark energy" of the cosmos for rocket-propulsion or other purposes, all we do is attempt to use what's already out there. No one can ever know the true nature of anything or change that nature. We can barely change the environment on our little planet (which doesn't come easily mind you) and on a cosmic scale our efforts seem pokey and wasteful... which is very sad for me which is why I created this topic.
- #38
selfAdjoint
Staff Emeritus
Gold Member
Dearly Missed
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So true. We are not really like gods and can never expect to be. I suppose that's a tough line. I wish others would post on this thread to see what the range of attitudes is to this brute fact of life.
- #39
alexsok
- 123
- 0
Yeah I wish others would also comment on this issue.
Question to you: When you say "we", do you refer to the "we" that is here and now or do you cover all possible bases as the "we" that will always populate the planet (well.. at least for another thousand of years)? In either case, if "we" can never be gods, then how can one expect a single tiny individul like me and you find a meaning to their lives if the entire mankind of today or the one that will develop eons from now is as powerless in changing the status quo?
Question to you: When you say "we", do you refer to the "we" that is here and now or do you cover all possible bases as the "we" that will always populate the planet (well.. at least for another thousand of years)? In either case, if "we" can never be gods, then how can one expect a single tiny individul like me and you find a meaning to their lives if the entire mankind of today or the one that will develop eons from now is as powerless in changing the status quo?
- #40
-Job-
Science Advisor
- 1,152
- 4
Any control over perception is as good as control over the universe. As long as you can change one of them... You can walk down a road or force the Earth to slide under your feet, and they're both as good if all you want to do is get somewhere.
- #41
octelcogopod
- 560
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There is one thing I think you are not understanding here.
The universe didn't PUT you in this position.
You made a CHOICE to feel this way.
You can feel and think ANYTHING, the universe has NO EVIL OR GOOD, it is only NEUTRAL.
You see what I'm saying?
You keep saying that there is some unanswered question "lingering", but that's all in your mind.
You got to free yourself, the only one who can answer that question is you.
The universe didn't PUT you in this position.
You made a CHOICE to feel this way.
You can feel and think ANYTHING, the universe has NO EVIL OR GOOD, it is only NEUTRAL.
You see what I'm saying?
You keep saying that there is some unanswered question "lingering", but that's all in your mind.
You got to free yourself, the only one who can answer that question is you.
- #42
Omega_6
- 39
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octelcogopod said:
I think that the fact that this thread exists proves that you can not always control how you feel. I'm pretty sure he didn't make a choice to feel bad. I obviously can think anything, but I can not feel anything at will. No one has accused the universe of being evil or good, people just don't like the situation they are in. What is so wrong with complaining about your situation? Again, what you feel does not change what is really going to happen (If you believe that there is no such thing as reality, then it is impossible to argue with you about anything, but obviously the topic creator believes that his reality exists).
The topic creator does have questions that he can not answer. Of course, he can make up his own answers, but those are not the real answers he is looking for. I personally love your outlook on life, but only to the point that it amuses me. Of course the questions are in his mind, everything we perceive we perceive through our minds. This doesn't make his questions any less real.
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- #43
octelcogopod
- 560
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Omega_6 said:
What does that even mean? "Real?"
You agree that everything is in his head, yet you say this.
Here's what I'm trying to say:
His situation is created in his mind.
The situation isn't "real", it's as real as any other outlook on life.
If every question is created in his mind, then all the answers are there too.
- #44
Omega_6
- 39
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What I am saying is that he perceives (perceives, it doesn't mean reality actually occurs in his mind) EVERYTHING in his mind. So everything could be said to "be in his mind." So saying that his questions are only "in his mind" really doesn't make them any different than anything else. What I perceive as reality is not up to me, I perceive what happens, and I ask questions about things that I really perceive.octelcogopod said:
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- #45
alexsok
- 123
- 0
octelcogopod
Here is a tricky question m8. Death. Is it in our my mind as well? Is it incorrect for me to surmise that I might be dead today, tommorow or in 50 years?
I'm scared of death, terrified of the "nothingness" and the "void", but then again, life without death repulses me to so I actively choose to repudiate religion for example because of how I feel.
You're right in that the universe is neutral but as Omega said, some things just plain happen, whether you like it or not. And compounding this with my fear of the inevitable just consolidates my "existential angst" and the feelings of hopelessness.
Man has control of his life, absolutely, in many aspects too, but he doesn't have control of what counts the most.
My position can be summed up the following way: A man is born alone without anything into an unfathomable existence and dies alone without anything and with no answers provided to the most basic (at least in theory) questions.
If I'm wrong and there is a god and afterlife, he will have much more of an explaining to do to me rathen than me to him, the thought of that kinda amuses me
Here is a tricky question m8. Death. Is it in our my mind as well? Is it incorrect for me to surmise that I might be dead today, tommorow or in 50 years?
I'm scared of death, terrified of the "nothingness" and the "void", but then again, life without death repulses me to so I actively choose to repudiate religion for example because of how I feel.
You're right in that the universe is neutral but as Omega said, some things just plain happen, whether you like it or not. And compounding this with my fear of the inevitable just consolidates my "existential angst" and the feelings of hopelessness.
Man has control of his life, absolutely, in many aspects too, but he doesn't have control of what counts the most.
My position can be summed up the following way: A man is born alone without anything into an unfathomable existence and dies alone without anything and with no answers provided to the most basic (at least in theory) questions.
If I'm wrong and there is a god and afterlife, he will have much more of an explaining to do to me rathen than me to him, the thought of that kinda amuses me
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- #46
octelcogopod
- 560
- 0
First to Omega:
I completely agree.
We perceive what happens, we follow reality.
But that's not my point.
My point is that you, as a conscious observer, can change your outlook on life in however way you want.
I tend to think that a positive attitude, a more or less "I don't care about this universe stuff" attitude is the best.
to alex:
I CHOOSE to not focus my efforts on that which I feel is not important.
If I can do it, so can alexsok.
But he chooses not to, for some reason or another he has aching questions, he feels a hopelessness because he does not want to die nor does he want to live forever, and this whole existence seems very random and futile.
And in the middle of this is him, just a tiny dot in an unfathomable existence.
But here's my point: *drum roll*
It doesn't NEED to matter. These questions, this existence, it doesn't NEED to matter, if you just DON'T CARE.
I realized one day, that what really matters is realizing that yes, this existence is crazy, what the HELL is this universe, why am I here, why does everyone go about their lives as if everything is ok, why doesn't anyone question where they are, who they are, why doesn't anyone DO SOMETHING?
I'll tell you why.
There's a difference between the likes of us, and the likes of them.
Only when you realize the craziness, the severity, and the gravity of the situation, will you realize the funniness, the humor and the general bizareness of it.
Only then, can you truly sit down and think "haha this is nuts, but I'm here, I have emotions, i have thoughts, so I'm just going to enjoy the ride."
I completely agree.
We perceive what happens, we follow reality.
But that's not my point.
My point is that you, as a conscious observer, can change your outlook on life in however way you want.
I tend to think that a positive attitude, a more or less "I don't care about this universe stuff" attitude is the best.
to alex:
I CHOOSE to not focus my efforts on that which I feel is not important.
If I can do it, so can alexsok.
But he chooses not to, for some reason or another he has aching questions, he feels a hopelessness because he does not want to die nor does he want to live forever, and this whole existence seems very random and futile.
And in the middle of this is him, just a tiny dot in an unfathomable existence.
But here's my point: *drum roll*
It doesn't NEED to matter. These questions, this existence, it doesn't NEED to matter, if you just DON'T CARE.
I realized one day, that what really matters is realizing that yes, this existence is crazy, what the HELL is this universe, why am I here, why does everyone go about their lives as if everything is ok, why doesn't anyone question where they are, who they are, why doesn't anyone DO SOMETHING?
I'll tell you why.
There's a difference between the likes of us, and the likes of them.
Only when you realize the craziness, the severity, and the gravity of the situation, will you realize the funniness, the humor and the general bizareness of it.
Only then, can you truly sit down and think "haha this is nuts, but I'm here, I have emotions, i have thoughts, so I'm just going to enjoy the ride."
- #47
Omega_6
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I am just not fond of people saying that another's questions aren't even valid (ESPECIALLY when it comes to philosophy). You can hide under the illusion that you have ultimate control over your life and that you have all the answers, but eventually it is going to hit you that you don't. The only answers you have apply to unimportant matters like the answers to your test.
There are many things that we will face that we have no control over, some bigger than others. You can think what you want, but everyone is going to die, and whatever happens afterward is what really happens (whether nothing happens or something happens). Everybody lives under this fear of death, some just deny that it bothers them (or choose to forget about it), or they use a belief to make death okay. Religion and death are intertwined.
Again, everybody on this planet is on equal footing when it comes to things such as the "meaning" of life and existence as a whole. Flat out saying somebody is wrong in their beliefs or wrong in asking their questions is...wrong. If I were to believe that an invisible, undetectable leprechaun that resides in my pocket will save me from death, there really isn't anything you can do to disprove it. This is why debating religion (even some "new-age" thinking) is impossible. We can, however, discuss events such as our death and ponder how this affects our lives, and what life means if a god exists or a god doesn't exist. But saying that what someone believes life to be is wrong, and therefore nullifying their questions, isn't something that can be discussed rationally.
octelcogopod
I agree that we can choose to just live life, but what I am saying is that it still doesn't really change anything, and therefore the topic creator's questions still remain.
P.S. I don't know If I am coming off sounding angry or anything, but I can assure you that I'm not.
There are many things that we will face that we have no control over, some bigger than others. You can think what you want, but everyone is going to die, and whatever happens afterward is what really happens (whether nothing happens or something happens). Everybody lives under this fear of death, some just deny that it bothers them (or choose to forget about it), or they use a belief to make death okay. Religion and death are intertwined.
Again, everybody on this planet is on equal footing when it comes to things such as the "meaning" of life and existence as a whole. Flat out saying somebody is wrong in their beliefs or wrong in asking their questions is...wrong. If I were to believe that an invisible, undetectable leprechaun that resides in my pocket will save me from death, there really isn't anything you can do to disprove it. This is why debating religion (even some "new-age" thinking) is impossible. We can, however, discuss events such as our death and ponder how this affects our lives, and what life means if a god exists or a god doesn't exist. But saying that what someone believes life to be is wrong, and therefore nullifying their questions, isn't something that can be discussed rationally.
octelcogopod
I agree that we can choose to just live life, but what I am saying is that it still doesn't really change anything, and therefore the topic creator's questions still remain.
P.S. I don't know If I am coming off sounding angry or anything, but I can assure you that I'm not.
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- #48
octelcogopod
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By the way, I'm not opposing your views, or alex's views.
I'm trying to make you think in more positive ways.
I stand by my word that yes, the universe, and Earth specifically, is crazy.
People do a lot of things.
They make up religions, they follow what ever they think is important at the time.
Some people do great damage, other people do great good.
You can't really blame humanity, or humans, for doing what they do.
On some level or another, nobody has any choice in anything.
Some people are born, they grow up, they learn to develop a certain attitude and lifestyle, many people never have a choice because they can't see themselves changing, it all comes naturally to them.
So my point is that all the stupid things humanity has done since we came here on earth, is simply just.. nature and humanity figuring itself out.
We have all made mistakes, we all find things we do, that pan out to be futile or incorrect, but what can you do?
I think that instead of lingering and pondering on what has happened, one should rather focus on what one WANTS to happen.
I don't think alex is at the point where nothing matters anymore, where he has no desire left to do anything.
He said himself he wasn't, so what imo needs to happen is to focus efforts elsewhere.
I'm NOT giving medical advice here, this is part of my philosophy, be cheerful, happy, and grateful for your existence.
That is my motto.
There's really nothing I can say or do, is there?
I'm trying to make you think in more positive ways.
I stand by my word that yes, the universe, and Earth specifically, is crazy.
People do a lot of things.
They make up religions, they follow what ever they think is important at the time.
Some people do great damage, other people do great good.
You can't really blame humanity, or humans, for doing what they do.
On some level or another, nobody has any choice in anything.
Some people are born, they grow up, they learn to develop a certain attitude and lifestyle, many people never have a choice because they can't see themselves changing, it all comes naturally to them.
So my point is that all the stupid things humanity has done since we came here on earth, is simply just.. nature and humanity figuring itself out.
We have all made mistakes, we all find things we do, that pan out to be futile or incorrect, but what can you do?
I think that instead of lingering and pondering on what has happened, one should rather focus on what one WANTS to happen.
I don't think alex is at the point where nothing matters anymore, where he has no desire left to do anything.
He said himself he wasn't, so what imo needs to happen is to focus efforts elsewhere.
I'm NOT giving medical advice here, this is part of my philosophy, be cheerful, happy, and grateful for your existence.
That is my motto.
There's really nothing I can say or do, is there?
- #49
alexsok
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octelcogopod
This is a really healthy perspective on life, and one that I would want to espouse some day (i seem to recall that in my more juvenile days I used to be exactly like that. blissful and uncaring.)
But, as Omega said, the questions are there regardless of how we choose to treat the subject matter (and will stay there long after the dust settles on our tombs).
So we should come to a consensus guys, at least partially. I do agree that in most cases ignorance is bliss and living life in a laid-back and trouble-free (at least in your mind) fashion is the way to go, optimism rocks and it will surely make you less of a boring person and will get you laid more for sure and yadda yadaa yadda...
But, since this is a forum of philosophy, let us focus on dissecting every question and trying to understand it's essence and it's ramifications with the obvious presupposition that we cannot know anything or come anywhere near a final resolution.
Agreed? :)
This is a really healthy perspective on life, and one that I would want to espouse some day (i seem to recall that in my more juvenile days I used to be exactly like that. blissful and uncaring.)
But, as Omega said, the questions are there regardless of how we choose to treat the subject matter (and will stay there long after the dust settles on our tombs).
So we should come to a consensus guys, at least partially. I do agree that in most cases ignorance is bliss and living life in a laid-back and trouble-free (at least in your mind) fashion is the way to go, optimism rocks and it will surely make you less of a boring person and will get you laid more for sure and yadda yadaa yadda...
But, since this is a forum of philosophy, let us focus on dissecting every question and trying to understand it's essence and it's ramifications with the obvious presupposition that we cannot know anything or come anywhere near a final resolution.
Agreed? :)
- #50
octelcogopod
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Hehe ok.
I see now where you are coming from.
I see now where you are coming from.
- #51
alexsok
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Hehe good.
Trust me, when they screen the second episode of Prison Break soon, i'll forget about this existential upheaval, at least for a while, like a long overdue respite ;)
Trust me, when they screen the second episode of Prison Break soon, i'll forget about this existential upheaval, at least for a while, like a long overdue respite ;)
- #52
octelcogopod
- 560
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Hehe ;)
Prison Break is good!
Anyway, don't want to go off topic.
Prison Break is good!
Anyway, don't want to go off topic.
- #53
alexsok
- 123
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Guys check this out.
http://www.dumpalink.com/media/1151836295/What_We_Are
http://www.dumpalink.com/media/1151836295/What_We_Are
- #54
Manaf
- 16
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well.. it is reasonable question and has been asked from the start of the time when humans found themselves in this universe.
For me, I think the answer is simple. If we want to know why we are created and for what, simply we should ask the creator about that.
Now, in order to access the creator, we should investigate the different pathways toward him and find the correct one, the one which proves itself and provides evidence of the truth of every point it states, even the question of the existence of Creator in the first place.
As I see when many people refer to religion, they think of it as "faith" without any evidence just to keep the hopes of humans alive in this hopeless world. Well, that's I think because either they didn't read about religion ,or read or believe in one that is not satisfactory and evidence-based. Just like we don't accept the scientific theories unless they are supported with enough evidence, I think every person should judge the truth of religion in just the same way, but with differences in the form of evidence,logical not empirical. When you know the true one, you can see what that tells you about the goal of life. Some missionary people just get surprised when asked about logical evidence, like the logical evidence of trinity. I think the religion has to prove itself for people in order for them to swallow it.
I liked what this writer in this article said about the goal of life:
http://66.113.138.253/books/other-lang/goal-of-life/01.html
thanks.
For me, I think the answer is simple. If we want to know why we are created and for what, simply we should ask the creator about that.
Now, in order to access the creator, we should investigate the different pathways toward him and find the correct one, the one which proves itself and provides evidence of the truth of every point it states, even the question of the existence of Creator in the first place.
As I see when many people refer to religion, they think of it as "faith" without any evidence just to keep the hopes of humans alive in this hopeless world. Well, that's I think because either they didn't read about religion ,or read or believe in one that is not satisfactory and evidence-based. Just like we don't accept the scientific theories unless they are supported with enough evidence, I think every person should judge the truth of religion in just the same way, but with differences in the form of evidence,logical not empirical. When you know the true one, you can see what that tells you about the goal of life. Some missionary people just get surprised when asked about logical evidence, like the logical evidence of trinity. I think the religion has to prove itself for people in order for them to swallow it.
I liked what this writer in this article said about the goal of life:
http://66.113.138.253/books/other-lang/goal-of-life/01.html
thanks.
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- #55
Kid_Electro
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"Can Man Live Without God?" -Ravi Zacharias
that book changed my life
that book changed my life
- #56
Omega_6
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PHP:
Kid_Electro said:
Please share how...and elaborate on the content of the book.
- #57
Kid_Electro
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Omega_6 said:
It is written by a noted apologist and philosopher. It explores how the reality of God's existence or lack thereof matters significantly in how we live our everyday lives. How we answer the question of God shapes the rest of our beliefs, for example perception of truth, morality etc...It does not deal a theoretical level of philosophy. More at a existential level attempting to reflect on the pains, sufferings, and meaning(s) of life.
It changed my life,by showing me many things that I did not know about Christianity,atheism and existentialists like Camus, Sartre etc.. and soon after I became a Christian.
- #58
Omega_6
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Interesting. I have always been fascinated with books on religion and the holy books. There was one book I read (I don't remember what it was called) that was written by a rabbi who took an open view on religion. None of these books caused me to become a christian, however. When I was a kid my parents always took me to church, but when I was finally old enough (and confident enough), I stopped going. I guess you could say that I was never really a christian at all, even though I've been exposed to a lot of christianity. I would use the term agnostic to describe myself.
It is always nice to hear from the point of view of a non-fanatical religious person. What do you think about these questions? What actually made you become a christian? There has to be something in this book that really got to you.
It is always nice to hear from the point of view of a non-fanatical religious person. What do you think about these questions? What actually made you become a christian? There has to be something in this book that really got to you.
- #59
thethinker1
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Another Reply to alexok post #1:
Well, I have been asking myself similar questions. I have asked if this reality is really a trick by God. It doesn't make sense. I mean we don't know where we came from (how humanity got here) and then we have to suffer and die at the end of it, not knowing where we are going. I have started to ask if this is a joke. I at first took joy in at least knowing that others are here with me, but I don't even know that for sure since this could be God fooling my senses. I appreciate your opinions.
Well, I have been asking myself similar questions. I have asked if this reality is really a trick by God. It doesn't make sense. I mean we don't know where we came from (how humanity got here) and then we have to suffer and die at the end of it, not knowing where we are going. I have started to ask if this is a joke. I at first took joy in at least knowing that others are here with me, but I don't even know that for sure since this could be God fooling my senses. I appreciate your opinions.
- #60
Jonny_trigonometry
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"I'm good enough, I'm smart enough, and dogonnit, people like me. This has been daily affirmations with Stewart Smalley" - Al Franken