What is the work required to push three protons to form an nucleus?

Click For Summary

Homework Help Overview

The discussion revolves around calculating the work required to bring three protons together to form a nucleus, specifically arranged in an equilateral triangle with sides of 2 femtometers. The original poster explores the forces involved and the work done against electric repulsion as the protons are moved from infinity to their final positions.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory, Conceptual clarification, Mathematical reasoning

Approaches and Questions Raised

  • The original poster attempts to derive the work done using force equations and integration, while others suggest alternative methods such as calculating individual potentials between pairs of protons. There is also a focus on clarifying terminology regarding nucleons and atoms.

Discussion Status

Participants are actively engaging with the original poster's approach, questioning the use of variables and suggesting different perspectives on the problem. Some guidance has been offered regarding the steps involved in calculating the work, but no consensus has been reached on the correct method or understanding.

Contextual Notes

There is an emphasis on understanding the physics concepts involved, with participants noting the need to clarify definitions and assumptions about forces and potential energy in the context of nuclear interactions.

Jonsson
Messages
78
Reaction score
0
Hello there,

Imagine that a nucleus consists of three atoms arranged in a equilateral triangle with the length of each side, ##R=2 \rm fm##.

Our protons starts infinitely far away. What is the work required to push these protons together in order to overcome the electric force between them?

I imagine that at any point in time, the force between each pair of protons is given by:

$$
F_E = k\frac{q_0^2}{r^2}
$$

Since each proton sees force from two protons, each at an angle ##\theta = 60^\circ## relative to the other since the triangle has angles $60^\circ$. The magnitude of the sum of these two force vectors must be given by:

$$
\|\mathbf{F}\| = 2\cdot\cos(\theta/2)F_E = 3^{1/2}k\frac{q_0^2}{r^2}
$$

We can then compute the work by letting ##F_{net} = 3 \, \|\mathbf{F}\|##:
$$
W_{\infty\to R} = \int_\infty^R\,F_{net}\,{\rm d}l = 3^{3/2}kq_0\int_\infty^R \frac{1}{r^2}\,{\rm d}l
$$

which is incorrect.

What of the previous is incorrect?

Thank you for your time.

Kind regards,
Marius
 
Last edited:
Physics news on Phys.org
You have used r variably as the distance between the protons and as the direction of motion. Why do you not just compute the individual potentials between each pair of protons and add them up?

Note: A bit of nomenclature, a nucleus does not consist of atoms, it consists of nucleons (protons and neutrons). An atom has a nucleus which is in a bound state with a number of electrons. A molecule consists of atoms.
 
You are right, silly me. I fixed that now.

I could do as you say, but I am trying to learn what is wrong with my understanding of physics since I end up getting the wrong answer.

Are you able to help me work it out? :)

Thank you for your time.

Kind regards,
Marius
 
Jonsson said:
You are right, silly me. I fixed that now.

I could do as you say, but I am trying to learn what is wrong with my understanding of physics since I end up getting the wrong answer.

Are you able to help me work it out? :)

Thank you for your time.

Kind regards,
Marius
You have to do in three steps. First you bring in the first proton from infinity. That requires no work. Then you bring in the second one. What is the work needed to bring that second one near the first one (note that there is only repulsion from ONE proton in that step). Finally you bring in the third one. You then add up the works for the three steps (the first work being trivially zero)
 
Thanks!
 
I'm not getting the same force equation that you have. Can you draw a picture and show how you oriented your system with respect to your axes?
 

Similar threads

Replies
3
Views
1K
Replies
1
Views
1K
  • · Replies 9 ·
Replies
9
Views
2K
Replies
6
Views
3K
Replies
2
Views
3K
  • · Replies 4 ·
Replies
4
Views
2K
Replies
1
Views
2K
  • · Replies 56 ·
2
Replies
56
Views
5K
Replies
31
Views
2K