News What is wrong with the US economy? Part 2

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The U.S. economy is facing significant challenges, highlighted by the Federal Reserve's decision to maintain interest rates at 2%, which led to a market decline. AIG's stock plummeted by 45% due to concerns over its exposure to risky derivatives, prompting speculation about a potential Federal bailout. The Fed is reportedly considering a lending facility for AIG, with major banks like Goldman Sachs and J.P. Morgan Chase involved in discussions. Despite some recovery in AIG's stock, there are ongoing concerns about the broader implications of a potential AIG collapse on the financial system. The U.S. trade deficit has also widened, raising alarms about the country's economic stability as it continues to accumulate debt.
  • #201
This evil of Banking fluctuation, ends not with the mercantile community. It extends to every thing that commercial enterprise reaches. It injures the farmer and mechanic, in the precise ratio of the vacillations of public feeling.

It falls with single and dreadful severity upon the industrious poor man, whose capital is not sufficient to command accommodations.

Against a power so tremendous, what barrier have we erected? As Well might Canute have controlled the waves of the ocean with a breath.

The wretched state of the currency for the two succeeding years cannot be overlooked; the disaster of 1819, which seriously affected the circumstances, property, and industry of every district in the United States, will long be recollected.

A lamentable and rapid succession of evil and untoward events, prejudicial to the progress of productive industry, and causing a baleful extension of embarrassment, insolvency, litigation, and dishonesty, alike subversive of social happiness and morals.

Every intelligent mind must express regret and astonishment, at the recurrence of these disasters in tranquil times and bountiful seasons, amongst an enlightened, industrious, and enterprising people, comparatively free from taxation, unrestrained in our pursuits, possessing abundance of fertile lands, and valuable minerals, with capital and capacity to improve, and an ardent disposition to avail ourselves of these great bounties.

Calamities such as these are well calculated to inspire and enforce the conviction that there is something radically erroneous in our monetary system.


Mr John White, the Cashier of the United States Branch Bank, February 15th, 1830.
 
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  • #202
Harry Reid is describing what happened yesterday, and apparently it was McCain in the Republican Caucus that berated the congressional Republicans and urged them to abandon their cooperation in seeking a solution.

This whole thing is very disappointing to see as McCain, the one that talks so much about honor, apparently cares so little for America, as to create crisis that he can then play the part on stage to pretend that he resolved. I've concluded that he's just not an honest man, blinded by some apparent lust for power. In that regard, he and Palin are looking like a matched pair.
 
  • #203
Astronuc said:
I thought the job description of finance/accounting included knowing precisely how much debt one has. I thought the point of 'account' is to 'account'. Has someone changed the commonly accepted definitions of the English language recently?

My girlfriend is an accountant, and has worked several places, not one of which had their stuff remotely in order. Accounting departments as a rule are grossly understaffed, and can barely manage to get bills and commissions paid on time, working 12 hour days; never mind processing data in order to get any sort of "big picture" view of the company's finances. And it's all voodoo, anyway...if you want the company to look good this month, you put the debt on next month's sheet, etc.
 
  • #204
Ben Niehoff said:
My girlfriend is an accountant, and has worked several places, not one of which had their stuff remotely in order. Accounting departments as a rule are grossly understaffed, and can barely manage to get bills and commissions paid on time, working 12 hour days; never mind processing data in order to get any sort of "big picture" view of the company's finances. And it's all voodoo, anyway...if you want the company to look good this month, you put the debt on next month's sheet, etc.
Public companies accounts are independently audited so situations such as you portray would not exist for long before heavy sanctions were invoked.

There is no voodoo in accounts there are strict rules governing every aspect of each and every transaction and so no you cannot shove debt onto next month on a whim. At least not legally. Bad accounting is not a fault of accounting systems it is a reflection on the honesty or competence of the people using the system.
 
  • #205
Art said:
Public companies accounts are independently audited so situations such as you portray would not exist for long before heavy sanctions were invoked.

There is no voodoo in accounts there are strict rules governing every aspect of each and every transaction and so no you cannot shove debt onto next month on a whim. At least not legally. Bad accounting is not a fault of accounting systems it is a reflection on the honesty or competence of the people using the system.

ENRON ! The books can be cooked at any public company no matter what the size.

As with the 25 other ongoing FBI inquiries involving the mortgage debacle, the main focus of interest is whether companies and their executives misled investors and auditors when they put a value on their mortgage-related investments.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/09/24/AR2008092403589.html
 
  • #206
Arthur Andersen audited Enron, but AA also did consultation with Enron (conflict of interest).

Only after the fact - after the patient became fatally ill - was it revealed that Andersen audits were meaningless. Apparently there was no real review and the Andersen people could not understand some of the complicated transactions Enron was up to. That and Andersen didn't catch the shell game orchestrated by Fastow.

Both Andersen and Enron are history - after investors lost $billions.


And perhaps we are now seeing it on an even bigger scale - with $trillions lost.
 
  • #208
With the world's second biggest economy and America's largest trading partner, Japan, shrinking at an annualised rate of 3%, and given the financial problems shaking consumer confidence in the US, my prediction is the US will hit negative GDP growth in the 4th Qtr and possibly, close to if not actually, negative in the current (3rd) qtr.
 
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  • #209
Art said:
With the world's second biggest economy and America's largest trading partner, Japan, shrinking at an annualised rate of 3%, and given the financial problems shaking consumer confidence in the US, my prediction is the US will hit negative GDP growth in the 4th Qtr and possibly, close to if not actually, negative in the current (3rd) qtr.
It's not just "shaking consumer confidence", Art. When soaring prices of gas, heating oil, and food strip the pockets of the consumers, they just don't have the money to spend in other sectors. Expect the economy to tank when heating-oil prices start hitting home.
 
  • #210
Study: Most companies avoid income taxes
GAO report says both U.S. owned and foreign corporations dodge levy
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/26145921/

The Business of Not Paying Taxes
Tuesday, August 12, 2008

http://www.daylife.com/article/0fg12NR8pP5Tm


Are You Paying For Corporate Fat Cats?
http://www.parade.com/articles/editions/2008/edition_04-13-2008/Intelligence_Report
As you file your tax return this week, you may think you’re paying off the tax obligations for just your household. But you’re also footing the bill for American companies that are dodging billions of dollars in taxes. “Most major corporations have a tax department not just to comply with the tax code but also as a profit center,” says Charles Cray of the Center for Corporate Policy, a nonprofit watchdog group.

A 2004 U.S. Government Accountability Office (GAO) study found that 61% of American corporations, including 39% of large companies, paid no corporate income taxes between 1996 and 2000. Last year, corporations shouldered just 14.4% of the total U.S. tax burden, compared with about 50% in 1940.

While companies are getting off easy, thanks to loopholes, ordinary wage earners are getting stuck with the tab. The tax burden on individuals is expected to climb from $1.16 trillion in 2007 to $1.21 trillion this year, according to the Congressional Budget Office (CBO), while corporate tax receipts are expected to decline from $370 billion to $364 billion. By 2013, the CBO estimates, ordinary taxpayers’ bills may climb to $1.86 trillion while corporate tax bills drop to $327 billion.

One strategy of corporations is to create “shell companies” in places like Bermuda, Gibraltar and the Caribbean to avoid federal taxes. Corporations “set up an offshore division that has nothing more than a post office box,” says Rep. Richard
E. Neal (D., Mass.), the chairman of a House subcommittee probing tax breaks. Experts estimate that the U.S. Treasury may be losing up to $100 billion a year due to shell corporations.

In one recent case, KBR—a former Halliburton subsidiary and the largest Iraq war contractor—admitted to “reducing tax obligations” through two Cayman Islands divisions, reportedly avoiding hundreds of millions of dollars in Medicare and Social Security taxes. A 2004 study by the GAO found that 24 of the largest federal contractors used Cayman Is*lands units to shave their tax bills.

Oil and other multinational companies also benefit from tax breaks, some specially written for them. Most are perfectly legitimate, but companies sometimes push the envelope too far. Pharmaceutical giant Merck paid $2.3 billion to the government last year for profits related to a Bermuda partnership.


Comparison of the Reported Tax Liabilities of Foreign- and U.S.-Controlled Corporations, 1998-2005
http://www.gao.gov/new.items/d08957.pdf

Tax Foundation takes exception to the report.
http://www.taxfoundation.org/blog/show/23476.html

and so does the US Chamber of Commerce
US Chamber Responds To GAO Corporate Tax Report
http://www.tax-news.com/asp/story/US_Chamber_Responds_To_GAO_Corporate_Tax_Report_xxxx32317.html


Certainly the GAO needs to be impartial and get it right (whatever right is), otherwise it does the nation a disservice.
 
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  • #211
Uncle Sam: $407 billion in the hole
Deficit up by $246 billion in a year. Federal agency cites 'substantial increase in spending' and 'halt' in tax revenue growth. Also says it will add Fannie and Freddie to future estimates.
http://money.cnn.com/2008/09/09/news/economy/cbo_budget_update/index.htm

To date, 11 banks have been seized by the FDIC this year - not a high number historically, but higher than it's been in recent years - and that number is expected to grow in the coming months.

The CBO said it expected the deficit to exceed $400 billion - or 3% of gross domestic product - for each of the next two years if current policies remain in place. It also forecast several more months of "very slow" economic growth.

"The nation is experiencing a significant period of economic weakness," said Peter Orszag, director of the CBO, in a press briefing.

The CBO's estimate for the cumulative deficit over the next 10 years is now $2.3 trillion. Earlier this year, the CBO estimated the country would have a $300 billion surplus by 2018. But that was wiped out in part because of new spending approved by lawmakers for the war in Iraq and Afghanistan and revised economic projections.

And the 2.3 trillion figure doesn't account for the likelihood that the 2001 and 2003 tax cuts will be extended or that the middle class will continue to be protected from the Alternative Minimum Tax - or so-called wealth tax. If those extensions are made - and both presidential nominees have been calling for that, at least in part - then the 10-year deficit projection jumps to more than $7 trillion.

Putting Fannie and Freddie on the books
. . . .

More good news - http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601087&sid=a08O9REm5k9c
 
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  • #212
Consumerism itself, seems to me, has at least some role to play in the foundations of the recent credit tumult, yet its something we've heard very little about.

For a good to be valued less for its durability and more for its fashionability seems a strange requirement for any rational economic/banking system to have to accommodate.

And I think its caused some problems. Some fortunate portions of society have used part of their credit to buy hard assets (homes etc, and while plummetting are not zero); while other portions used their credit on thin-air: goods that are probably already piling up on the junk heap. Likely helped to hammer in the wedge between future haves and have-nots considerably deeper.
 
  • #213
kronon said:
Consumerism itself, seems to me, has at least some role to play in the foundations of the recent credit tumult, yet its something we've heard very little about.
I don't think the media would wish to alienate their customers or the politicians their constituents by telling them that some of them borrowed too much and that they contributed to the crisis.

It's a confluence of problems - too much debt, insufficient economic growth, surge in energy prices and probably cost of health care - and boom - cost of living exceeds ability to pay, and everyday expenses (including debt service) exceed income.


Meanwhile - U.S. stock futures down ahead of rescue plan vote
NEW YORK (MarketWatch) -- U.S. stock futures fell sharply on Monday as fears intensified the $700 billion rescue proposal may not be enough to restore confidence in the financial system as Wachovia Corp. and lenders around the world received government backing of some sort.
. . .
The deal reached during the weekend calls for $250 billion upfront to be given to the Treasury to buy troubled assets. Treasury could purchase the bad debt through an auction process as well as direct purchases, a Treasury official said in a conference call.

Equity strategists at Credit Suisse say $700 billion represents about 12% of mortgages not backed by Freddie Mac or Fannie Mae -- "probably an appropriate amount to ensure markets become more liquid." But they said it was too small, especially compared to the original Resolution Trust Corp. program that rescued savings-and-loans.

Merrill Lynch's currency strategists said it was "more or less as expected" -- and they too warned it might not be enough.

"If, as we expect, money markets do not calm down, we would expect risk to weaken in a broad way. Policymakers may then start thinking of even bigger and more unconventional policies," they said.

Deutsche Bank's Mike Mayo, a well-regarded banking analyst, said the positives were mergers can be jump-started and problem banks now have an exit strategy. But he too saw negatives.

"Our issue is that the plan is likely not sufficient for banks to meaningfully expand business, to reduce the slide in home prices, or to halt the likely increase in problem loans for the next year," he said.
. . . .
 
  • #214
Citigroup buys Wachovia. Dow down 250. CNBC interviewing some congressman that say they will vote no on the bill. Not sure if that is useful.
 
  • #215
Astronuc said:
and boom - cost of living exceeds ability to pay, and everyday expenses (including debt service) exceed income.[/url]

The precise point at which this occurs and the dynamics leading to it I find fascinating. Suddenly, the numbers just stop adding up for the average citizen..."basic expenses x, income 0.9x, and no more overdraft or tax credit...". Game-over. It marks the start of what may be a stalling economy, tarp or no tarp.
 
  • #216
Greg Bernhardt said:
Citigroup buys Wachovia. Dow down 250. CNBC interviewing some congressman that say they will vote no on the bill. Not sure if that is useful.
I heard the initial vote in the House was something like 220 Yes - 198 No, which is awfully close. I guess some just want to say they were forced into a Yes to protect the economy. Too bad these guys weren't paying attention during the last decade or so.

Dow was down a little over 300 when I last checked, and NASDAQ was down about 5%.


Well, I suppose it could be worse. :rolleyes:
 
  • #217
Astronuc said:
I heard the initial vote in the House was something like 220 Yes - 198 No, which is awfully close. I guess some just want to say they were forced into a Yes to protect the economy. Too bad these guys weren't paying attention during the last decade or so.

Dow was down a little over 300 when I last checked, and NASDAQ was down about 5%.


Well, I suppose it could be worse. :rolleyes:
After the deal is finalized (and it will be, much to my dismay), watch the Republicans up for election this year start hammering their opponents about the "Democrat Bailout Package". It's coming, sure as little green apples.
 
  • #218
So far vote has not passed the house. However CNN says they can leave the vote open for people to change position for as long as they need.

DOW down 400+
 
  • #219
Dow down 653 - 5.9%! I saw it down 6.1% momentarily!

Panic has set in?


Apparently the Dow was heading back up. Yahoo reported it down 700 points at one point as the vote on the $700 billion rescue bill was starting.
 
  • #220
I am wondering if any of this is a part of, or will lead up to the rumored October surprise. :devil:
 
  • #221
The precise point at which this occurs and the dynamics leading to it I find fascinating.
There will be books and books trying to find out.
There used to be a time when people never borrowed for "daily expenses".
"Somebody" changed the way people think.
"Somebody" set up the "mechanisms" that would allow people to be able to borrow without worrying about paying the money back.
"Somebody" was Benefiting from those transactions.
Talk to seniors ... they hate to buy if they do not have the money.

Yea - 207 Nay - 226
 
  • #222
Astronuc said:
Dow down 653 - 5.9%! I saw it down 6.1% momentarily!

yup low at 705!

no votes have changed in the past 15min

edit: bill actually lost two votes! 205 now
 
  • #223
cnn reports dem leadership says bill is dead. they will go back to the drawing board and construct a new deal
 
  • #224
Greg Bernhardt said:
cnn reports dem leadership says bill is dead. they will go back to the drawing board and construct a new deal

I'd say throw the bums out.

The people's representatives are not doing the people's business.

A lot of good McCain did going back to Washington. (Or is this the ploy? Have McCain step into make an impassioned plea to the party and get them to come along and then look like a hero? They've tried dumber things. Look no further than Palin.)
 
  • #225
Score one for America. You can take that $700 billion figure and stuff it back where you got it from.
 
  • #226
How about a new plan that backstops the bad mortgages and keeps people in their houses, propping up the bundled securities made up of those mortgages? The thought that investment banks could sell the taxpayers all the bad debt they hold is just too ridiculous to contemplate. If my exposure to investment banks (through mutual funds, etc) causes me to lose money as some banks fail, that's one thing. It's another thing entirely to come after me for money to reward the people who took unacceptable short-term risks. Also, re-regulate the banks and forbid the issuing of any new derivatives - they appear to be so complex that auditors can't evaluate them, and are thus a great way to scam individual investors at the expense of insiders.
 
  • #227
turbo-1 said:
Also, re-regulate the banks and forbid the issuing of any new derivatives - they appear to be so complex that auditors can't evaluate them, and are thus a great way to scam individual investors at the expense of insiders.

I tend to agree. The thing that is so difficult to figure is the systemic damage that has been created by these irresponsible derivatives sweeping loose credit terms in and bundling them about in the unregulated market.

While I have no love for seeing 700B spilled down the bunny hole, the concern for me is the holes in the fabric of the credit markets that still need repair. The Federal Reserve stressed itself further today opening up larger international credit swaps to stimulate liquidity.

At some point the apparatus simply fails and it's not clear what pieces are left.

The number one best thing we can do is get this election out of the way, and get McCain and his deregulation fat cat buddies into retirement, with the epithets of an ungrateful nation for what they have wrought.
 
  • #228
Now the Republicans are trying to blame Pelosi for delivering a Partisan speech?

These guys are real rubes.
 
  • #229
I suppose if stock prices fall - then a few more financial services companies may not have adequate capital. If there is a liquidity crisis - some companies may not be able to make payroll.

I suspect during this week the equities markets will be rather volatile.
 
  • #231
Greg Bernhardt said:
I am toast in the market today. Down 16% personally.

If you had Wachovia shares you'd be crispy fried.
 
  • #232
turbo-1 said:
How about a new plan that backstops the bad mortgages and keeps people in their houses,
You mean like some sort of federal mortage corporation backed by the goverment?
It might work as long as it wasn't privatised to become just another Wall St casino although one without any regulation, congressional oversight or financial stabilty.
I can't see that ever happening.
 
  • #233
Greg Bernhardt said:
I am toast in the market today. Down 16% personally.
Sorry to hear that. I'm pretty well-diversified, but I've been taking a pounding almost all year. I just don't want to look at the numbers today.

I've got a money-market account with the interest rate tied to prime. It was great when I started the account, but every time the Fed freaks and cuts prime to free up money for the market, I take it in the neck. If the Fed cuts rates again, I might have to put my money under the mattress. At least it will be handy when I have to fill a shopping-bag full of bills so my wife can pick up some bread and milk.
 
  • #234
http://60minutes.yahoo.com/segment/194/the_big_bailout

Paulson says that many of the problem mortgages originate at the state level where they are regulated. Too many people put nothing down or bought second or multiple houses. He's answering Scott Pelley's question of why they didn't see this coming.

They should have read this thread 2 years ago. :biggrin:


Sorry to hear about your loss today, Greg. Consumer products equities JNJ, KFT, PG are where you should put your money now. They have less of a downside. I think C and GS would be good buys.

I heard about 28 down for every 3 up on the NYSE earlier today.
 
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  • #235
turbo-1 said:
How about a new plan that backstops the bad mortgages and keeps people in their houses, propping up the bundled securities made up of those mortgages? The thought that investment banks could sell the taxpayers all the bad debt they hold is just too ridiculous to contemplate. If my exposure to investment banks (through mutual funds, etc) causes me to lose money as some banks fail, that's one thing. It's another thing entirely to come after me for money to reward the people who took unacceptable short-term risks. Also, re-regulate the banks and forbid the issuing of any new derivatives - they appear to be so complex that auditors can't evaluate them, and are thus a great way to scam individual investors at the expense of insiders.
AFIK there never was a plan to buy banks' bad debts. The fund was to buy illiquid assets i.e. those bundled mortgage derivative packages that banks cannot trade any more because their true value is not known.

If there is no bail out then I'd say the banking sector will go critical in a matter of weeks. Just today Wachovia in the US collapsed and was bought by Citigroup whilst in Europe one of the UK's biggest mortgage lenders, Bradford and Bingley was nationalised at a cost to the other UK banks of up to £14 billion and Benelux giant Fortis needed to be bailed out by three governments at a cost of 9 billion euro as did Germany's Hypo Real Estate to the tune of 28 billion euro.

The collapse of the financial sector will be closely followed by the wider economy as firms lose access to capital funding and lines of credit are withdrawn. A realization of which is causing the stock market to plummet.
 
  • #236
Astronuc said:
http://60minutes.yahoo.com/segment/194/the_big_bailout

Paulson says that many of the problem mortgages originate at the state level where they are regulated. Too many people put nothing down or bought second or multiple houses. He's answering Scott Pelley's question of why they didn't see this coming.

They should have read this thread 2 years ago. :biggrin: Sorry to hear about your loss today, Greg. Consumer products equities JNJ, KFT, PG are where you should put your money now. They have less of a downside. I think C and GS would be good buys.

I heard about 28 down for every 3 up on the NYSE earlier today.
Even some of the safe haven consumer companies are dodgy now because of the Chinese milk poisoning scare. Cadburys and allegedly Kraft have found Melamine in some of their products produced in China which I imagine isn't going to help their share prices. http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/7641317.stm

Seems there is nowhere safe to go at the moment for one reason or another.
 
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  • #237
You're right about PG, Astronuc. Solid performance, good marketing, and the major business is in consumables that have to be bought over and over again. When I was with Scott/SD Warren, they were our biggest competitor in consumer products. I gave the CEO of Scott hell when he visited my control room on the paper machine because instead of expanding the production/distribution of 1000-sheet rolls of Scott tissue to establish a presence west of the Mississippi, he and his marketing advisors chose to build a tissue mill on the west coast to produce highly-lofted 250-sheet/roll tissue to try to compete with P&G on their own turf. What a maroon (Thanks, Bugs!).
 
  • #238
Art said:
Even some of the safe haven consumer companies are dodgy now because of the Chinese milk poisoning scare. Cadburys and Kraft have found Melamine in some of their products produced in China which I imagine isn't going to help their share prices.

Seems there is nowhere safe to go at the moment for one reason or another.

I heard Cadbury was recalling a lot of chocolates, and the Chinese government busted a ring in one of the provinces that was adding melamine to milk. US and European companies need to think twice about food and pharmaceutical products from China. Inexpensive products often means low quality - and pressure to cheat with substitutions to make a buck.

They need to think about QC at the source.

Meanwhile - At 3:18PM ET: 10,527.05 616.08 (5.53%).

I bet they can't wait until 4pm EDT.
 
  • #239
Barney Frank just commented that if they will tell me the names of the 12 Republican Members that got their feelings hurt by any Partisanship, he will go to each one of them and "talk uncharacterically nicely" to them and try to persuade them to put the best interests of the country first.

His real opinion is that the Republicans couldn't deliver the votes that they said they could and are now painting it as a partisan issue. True that.
 
  • #240
US and European companies need to think twice about food and pharmaceutical products from China. Inexpensive products often means low quality
A number of european countries and US states have been caught adding antifreeze to wine, so you can't trust expensive products either!
 
  • #241
Dow 30 was down by 732.28 at one point (which just eclipsed the previous record low of 721 first day open after 9/11/2001), and flirted with a new 52-week low. It has recovered somewhat - climbing about 160 points.
 
  • #242
mgb_phys said:
A number of european countries and US states have been caught adding antifreeze to wine, so you can't trust expensive products either!
It all adds up to a confirmation of the need for regulation and oversight. All of these diverse problems from the financial markets to food quality are a consequence of a lack of these in pursuit of free market economics.
 
  • #243
Just before close:
Dow30: At 4:14PM ET: 10,365.45 -777.68 (-6.98%) I'm wondering if this is the close.
Nasdaq: 1,983.73 -199.61 -9.14%

Ouch that hurts someone!

I wonder how badly the Asian and European will do in the morning? Will they or the US market recover tomorrow?
 
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  • #244
Astronuc said:
Just before close:
Dow -689.59 -6.02%
Nasdaq -199.61 -9.14%

Ouch that hurts someone!

I wonder how badly the Asian and European will do in the morning? Will they or the US market recover tomorrow?

Dow now showing -777.68 after the close.
 
  • #245
I wonder if that's after hours - or it was delayed?
 
  • #246
Astronuc said:
I wonder if that's after hours - or it was delayed?

Probably delayed as it is technically after the close that it changed to that, but is no longer moving.
 
  • #247
The markets will rebound. After a drop like this, there are bargains, and they will be traded heavily enough to offset some of today's losses. Realists in the market know that the bailout proposal was a potential windfall for the well-connected, and now that it is dead, they will stop factoring it into their buy-sell evaluations and buy into the bargains.
 
  • #248
Marketwatch reported - Dow tumbled 777.60 points, or 7%, to end at 10,365 points, its biggest ever point loss.

If Congress doesn't come up with a bill, I don't see much of a recovery, if any. Look at the overseas markets and futures in the morning.


So much for strong fundamentals.
 
  • #249
Astronuc said:
Marketwatch reported - Dow tumbled 777.60 points, or 7%, to end at 10,365 points, its biggest ever point loss.

If Congress doesn't come up with a bill, I don't see much of a recovery, if any. Look at the overseas markets and futures in the morning.


So much for strong fundamentals.

You will be able to look this evening when the Asian Markets start - 9:00 PM Eastern.
 
  • #250
So exactly how screwed are we?

http://biz.yahoo.com/ap/080929/wall_street.html

The majority of my investments are in the stock market. I was really counting on that money to help me get through my PhD. But now I have lost about 40% (as of today) of it due to my bad decision making. Does anyone think the market will rebound within a couple years?
 

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