News What is wrong with the US economy?

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The discussion highlights a strong U.S. economy in 2006, with robust GDP growth, rising corporate profits, and increased tax revenues, despite concerns about wage stagnation and high corporate income. Economists argue that the housing market is normalizing rather than collapsing, and productivity in the corporate sector has significantly improved. Critics express concerns about income disparity and the impact of financial markets on pricing and debt levels, suggesting that the economic benefits are not evenly distributed. The conversation emphasizes the importance of considering both positive and negative economic indicators to understand the overall health of the economy. Ultimately, while the data appears overwhelmingly positive, there are underlying issues that warrant attention.
  • #701
russ_watters said:
They aren't fundamentally different from stocks (and much of that actually is just stocks). So really, it's about half of the population of the US who sees that profit.
Umm - there is a big difference. I imagine that few in the bottom 90% has any significant equity in oil/gas leases or rights. In much of the west, the mineral rights are owned by very few people. Most land owners west of the Mississippi do not own the mineral rights under their property. The why people in Texas, Oklahoma, Colorado and most, if not all western states, may find an oil right on their property or next door.

For example - http://www.lavetaforsale.com/Mineral-Rights.php

Meanwhile, the economy sheds jobs and some formerly hot companies are downsizing or not expanding.

ADP shows biggest job loss in nearly 6 years
Private-sector jobs decline by 79,000 in June

The ADP National Employment Report® is a measure of nonfarm private employment, based on a subset of aggregated and anonymous payroll data that represents approximately 392,000 of ADP's 500,000 U.S. business clients and roughly 24 million employees working in all 19 of the major North American Industrial Classification (NAICS) private industrial sectors.
http://www.adpemploymentreport.com/


Starbucks to close 600 U.S. stores, cut 12,000 jobs [not inlcuded in the 79,000 lost jobs above]

Blockbuster drops bid for Circuit City

But Yahoo shares are up after news (rumors) that MS is considering a new bid.
 
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  • #702
  • #703
Astronuc said:
Umm - there is a big difference. I imagine that few in the bottom 90% has any significant equity in oil/gas leases or rights.
You imagine? Could you at least elaborate a little on what this "big difference" is?

The way I see it, it is pretty simple: If Exxon owns drilling rights to East Bumblefrick and I own .001% of Exxon, I own .001% of the drilling rights to East Bumblefrick.
In much of the west, the mineral rights are owned by very few people. Most land owners west of the Mississippi do not own the mineral rights under their property.
I didn't know that, but in any case, that has nothing to do with what I said.
 
  • #704
Labor Dept. says we dropped 62,000 jobs. Unemployment still at 5.5%. But the interesting news from the market is that financials are outperforming other sectors.
 
  • #705
Gokul43201 said:
Unemployment still at 5.5%.
I made a wager that it would be at 5.2% this month. No one took me up on it so I won't be eating that steak dinner. Thus the downward economic spiral continues.

My wife was in Canada recently and she brought me a bottle of wine called "Peace", and yet is also called "Icewine". It's a 2006 Chardonnay from VQA of British Columbia. Perhaps you are familiar with it. I have never tasted such sweet wine except for the sacramental wine in the synagogue. It's not bad wine, but I really don't like it. The bottle will slowly drain though she will never see me drinking it. Someday the bottle will be empty and that will be the end of that.
 
  • #706
Astronuc said:
June 9, 2008
Rural U.S. Takes Worst Hit as Gas Tops $4 Average
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/06/09/business/09gas.html
By CLIFFORD KRAUSS
4% is no big deal, in fact the cost of gasoline is less than 2% of my income. But 13%?!

I didn't think to calculate mine till I read this, but mine is currently about 14%.:frown:
 
  • #707
It looks like problems in the housing market are far from being over. Indymac a subsidiary of Countrywide financial has just been seized. Fanny mae and Fredide mac stock is down.

http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5iWxtfjpQDpa7Wc4t3xQQf84g16XgD91S1G4O0
 
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  • #708
This story may support Russ Waters' thesis.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/25657232"
 
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  • #709
the wrong in US economy is greed...
 
  • #710
What a June it's been! Inflation numbers just came out from the Labor Dept - 5.0%

But July has to be better. We've had a $10 drop in crude prices in less than 2 days, thanks to positive inventory numbers. What better news can the markets ask for?

I wonder what might happen to the argument of sound economic fundamentals if the Government has to intercede in the markets to unprecedented levels?
 
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  • #711
Gokul43201 said:
But July has to be better. We've had a $10 drop in crude prices in less than 2 days, thanks to positive inventory numbers. What better news can the markets ask for?
And on that note, what a day it's been! I imagine it's among the top 5 for this year.
 
  • #712
All due to over-borrowing.
 
  • #713
Hopes for a recession were dealt a very hard blow today.
BEA said:
Real gross domestic product -- the output of goods and services produced by labor and property located in the United States -- increased at an annual rate of 1.9 percent in the second quarter of 2008 (that is, from the first quarter to the second quarter), according to advance estimates released by the Bureau of Economic Analysis. In the first quarter, real GDP increased 0.9 percent.
http://www.bea.gov/newsreleases/national/gdp/gdpnewsrelease.htm"
I don't know how these things work, but I doubt the NBER is going to declare a recession with a negative 1.9% decrease. Don't give up hope though, the previously reported 0.6% increase in the last quarter of 2007 has been revised to a positive 0.2% decrease.
 
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  • #714
Hopes that May unemployment numbers were a statistical blip were dealt a very hard blow today.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/7537463.stm

People hoping for 5.2% or better should not give up hope though. There's still many more months left in the future.
 
  • #715
Not sure how the Q2 GDP numbers flew under the radar. I didn't even see them when they came out and I was looking for them! (I knew they were out this week).
WASHINGTON — The economy expanded less than expected this spring, and actually shrank in the final months of 2007, the Commerce Department said Thursday in a report raising concern the nation is headed toward, or is already in, a recession.
The gross domestic product, the broadest measure of U.S. goods and services, increased at a 1.9% annual rate in the April-to-June quarter, buoyed by $78 billion in federal tax rebate checks and the strongest exports in decades. Growth was slower than economists predicted, but was up from the 0.9% pace of the previous quarter. The economy contracted at a 0.2% rate in the final months of 2007 — its worst showing since the 2001 recession.

Still, the quarter ended June 30 may be the high point for the year. In a recent survey by USA TODAY, 54 top economists predicted growth will slow to a barely perceptible 0.2% annual rate by the end of 2008.
http://www.usatoday.com/money/economy/2008-07-31-gdp-jobless_N.htm?loc=interstitialskip
 
  • #716
Gokul43201 said:
Hopes that May unemployment numbers were a statistical blip were dealt a very hard blow today.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/7537463.stm

People hoping for 5.2% or better should not give up hope though. There's still many more months left in the future.
That would be me. What were you hoping for?
 
  • #717
jimmysnyder said:
That would be me. What were you hoping for?
I was hoping to land a post-doc. Thanks for inquiring.
 
  • #718
Income stats for 2007 are out: http://www.census.gov/hhes/www/income/histinc/h03AR.html

Second table has inflation adjusted values. The USA Today article on it says the median rose 1.3%, from '06 to '07, but that must not be inflation adjusted: incomes actually rose for only two of the five fifths of the population they bracket (3/5 and 4/5 - the middle class). Incomes dropped about 1% for the lowest bracket and a big 2.9% for the top bracket - no doubt the drop at the top was due to the loss of investement income from the housing/finance funk. And the top 5% lost a whopping 7%.

This isn't what I expected - I expected small but across the board increases (though I didn't think about the effect of the sub-prime mess on the wealthy) and I'm a little confused about why we didn't see it: the GDP rose a healthy 3.2% in 2007. So where'd that money go?
 
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  • #719
Population growth (that's only about 1%)? Foreign investors?
 
  • #720
Gokul43201 said:
Foreign investors?

It turns out it went to Canada :bugeye:

"Foreign direct investment capital inflows from Canada into the United States increased by 500 percent between 2006 and 2007, jumping from $6.6 billion to $39 billion.
Foreign direct investment from the United Kingdom into the United States more than doubled between 2006 and 2007, rising from $11 billion to $27 billion.
Switzerland, Singapore, Australia, and Belgium all substantially increased their investment in the United States between 2006 and 2007. "

www.ofii.org/docs/FDI_2007.doc[/URL]
 
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  • #721
Foreign investment is an inflow of capital, not an outflow.

Anyway, more news: the 2nd quarter GDP numbers were revised way up:
The Commerce Department's report that gross domestic product rose at an annual rate of 3.3% for the April-June period helped punctuate a week of generally upbeat economic readings that have left guarded investors somewhat optimistic. The weaker dollar helped boost U.S. exports, which pushed GDP growth beyond the government's initial estimate of 1.9% as well as economists' forecast of 2.7%.
http://www.usatoday.com/money/markets/2008-08-28-stocks-thursday_N.htm

1.9% was so-so. 3.3% is quite healthy.
 
  • #722
3.3% is much more than just "quite healthy" given the circumstances and the speculation.

But I don't think that'll help consumer sentiment very much until housing values start getting back up (probably still a couple months or so away in most parts of the country), or unemployment makes a big dip in the third quarter and fuel prices stay flat for a while.
 
  • #723
well, basically, my salary is going up much slower than the price of good wine.
 
  • #724
Gokul43201 said:
3.3% is much more than just "quite healthy" given the circumstances and the speculation. ...
Agreed, its amazing to me. Thats likely to start making a big correction to the Federal deficit spike.
 
  • #725
mathwonk said:
well, basically, my salary is going up much slower than the price of good wine.

That is the catch-22. A weak dollar creates new jobs, but makes everything more expensive.
 
  • #726
Profits are up, but the wages and incomes of average Americans are down.
 
  • #727
agentyumi said:
Profits are up, but the wages and incomes of average Americans are down.
Wrong
 
  • #728
Either of you care to give sources?
 
  • #729
My state may be a special case, but a large paper mill in Millinocket is scheduled to shut down next month because the cost of fuel for their power-boilers and steam-generation exceeds their profits. Another smaller paper mill that produces specialty papers is shutting down in Jay for the same reason with the loss of another 150 jobs.

More job-losses to come, and it's really tough on workers in Maine because we are a rural state with (typically) long commutes to get to work and tough winters that require 4-wheel-drive vehicles to get to work. Add in the high cost of home heating oil, and our state is getting clobbered. Last year, lots of people budgeted and pre-paid for their heating oil, and as the long winter wore on and oil prices skyrocketed, several large fuel oil businesses failed to meet their obligations, leaving homes, businesses, and school districts without heating oil that they had already paid for - and finding that they had to come up with some money quick to buy even more heating oil to keep their buildings livable.
 
  • #730
  • #731
WarPhalange said:
Either of you care to give sources?
I posted the income stats two days ago in post 718. Parse them as you see fit. Wages are up from 2006-2007, but not enough to overcome inflation, and not evenly across all income brackets. In absolute terms, however, only the rich got poorer last year (that's the top 20% bracket).
 
  • #732
mheslep said:
Wrong
Wrong over what time scale? The median income in 2007 is definitely lower than it was in the 1999 or 2000 ... probably not the mean income though, since the top 20% seem to have higher incomes now.
 
  • #733
? Russ's post that revived this thread shows census mean income, which though taking a dip in ~2001 is higher now for average earners ( 2nd,3rd,4th quantiles) than ever before, certainly increasing every year from 2002 on.
 
  • #734
Note, though, that's still inflation adjusted, not current dollars. In any case, Gokul, the data is easy to read and glean whatever particlar data you want out of it. Why not just look at it instead of saying thing sthat are factually wrong and easily checked?
Gokul said:
The median income in 2007 is definitely lower than it was in the 1999 or 2000 ... probably not the mean income though, since the top 20% seem to have higher incomes now.
At least one of those three statements you just made is wrong. Which one depends on whether you look at current or 2007 (inflation adjusted) numbers. Go have a look at the data and pick where you want to be wrong.

Lemme help, though: if you look at current dollars, everyone is up since the previous peak (which happened in 2000). If you look at 2007 dollars, everyone is below the 2000 peak.
 
  • #735
russ_watters said:
Lemme help, though: if you look at current dollars, everyone is up since the previous peak (which happened in 2000). If you look at 2007 dollars, everyone is below the 2000 peak.
One of those two statements you just made is wrong. Go have a look at the data and figure out which one it is.

Let me help, though: Look at the http://www.census.gov/hhes/www/income/histinc/h01AR.html (adjusted for inflation, naturally) for the top of the fourth quintile.

PS: While you're at it, also check out the (adj) http://www.census.gov/hhes/www/income/histinc/h03AR.html for the fourth fifth.
 
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  • #736
The British Finance Minister, Alistair Darling has just given an astonishingly bad economic forecast. He believes the world economy is in it's worst state for 60 years and that Britain must ready itself for a severe economic downturn.

The full interview was given to the Guardian newspaper which has not yet made it available online though the BBC has released a version of it which although written in a more British-centric fashion than the original piece, wherein Darling blamed Britain's woes on the 'dire world credit situation' and spoke of the world being in it's worst economic state for 60 years, it still provides the general gist.

Darling warns of economic crisis

The UK is facing its worst economic crisis in 60 years, Chancellor Alistair Darling has admitted.

He told the Guardian newspaper that the economic downturn would be more "profound and long-lasting" than most people had feared.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/7589291.stm

Stanley Fisher, governor of the Bank of Israel and a former IMF official, also spoke a few days ago of the worst economic conditions since WW2 and even China's growth is disappearing rapidly. http://news.yahoo.com/s/bloomberg/20080827/pl_bloomberg/a7ogrdxkxse

The feeling is with the election looming neither candidate wants to raise the potential financial disaster looming as it is a turn off for voters but analysts are very concerned at the lack of a plan from either camp to handle the crisis
 
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  • #737
I haven't been around too much lately so this is kind of a late responce, but here it goes:

I'm really surprised anyone here actually believes government statistics about inflation and unemployment.

First off, about inflation: The way the government calculates inflation now is not the same way it was 30 (or even 10) years ago. The new system uses something called "hedonics", Read more about it here. On top of that the official numbers don't include food and energy, which is grossly misleading because that assumes that people don't pay for food, fuel, and electricity. But those three things have a ripple effect because they make other things more expensive as well. For example, because of rising materials costs (thanks to a combination of the aforementioned inflation factors and a depreciating dollar) Dow Chemical made an across the board price hike of 20%, on top of a similar move a few months ago by the same amount.
And misleading inflation figures can also cause misleading GDP growth statements, since real growth is the leftover between growth minus inflation. So if the inflation numbers or borked (which appearently they are), then your GDP growth numbers are going to be borked as well. According to several private economists we've been in a recession since the end of last year.

As for unemployment: Here's a good article that sums up the land of make-believe that the BLS is living in, There's a great many more out of there though.
 
  • #738
Gokul43201 said:
One of those two statements you just made is wrong. Go have a look at the data and figure out which one it is.

Let me help, though: Look at the http://www.census.gov/hhes/www/income/histinc/h01AR.html (adjusted for inflation, naturally) for the top of the fourth quintile.
You switched tables on me, Gokul. That's dishonest. The table you linked is the limit of each bracket - the dividing line. The table I linked is the average of everyone in each bracket. For the bottom 4 quintiles, you know everyone is between the dividing lines for the one below and the one above - for the people in the top quintile, you know everyone is above that dividing line --- some of them very far above.

For the upper quintile, the air is a lot thinner up there (the data is less linear), and what the data shows (it is interesting, even if you are being deceptive) is that the somewhat rich did better - only the super-rich did a lot worse. Some of those people in the top 5% must have lost a huge fraction of their income to drive the average down so far.
PS: While you're at it, also check out the (adj) http://www.census.gov/hhes/www/income/histinc/h03AR.html for the fourth fifth.
That's the table I posted and it looks like I missed that - the 4th fifth went up by .08% from 2000 to today, the only to increase among the five brackets. I got one wrong.

In any case, you're looking at the data now - Yea, good for you!
 
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  • #739
Art said:
The British Finance Minister, Alistair Darling has just given an astonishingly bad economic forecast. He believes the world economy is in it's worst state for 60 years and that Britain must ready itself for a severe economic downturn.
That's so typical. The article makes that claim promenantly and while it is chock full of quotes, they don't have a quote to back up that primary claim! So what did he actually say?
Stanley Fisher, governor of the Bank of Israel and a former IMF official, also spoke a few days ago of the worst economic conditions since WW2 and even China's growth is disappearing rapidly. http://news.yahoo.com/s/bloomberg/20080827/pl_bloomberg/a7ogrdxkxse

The feeling is with the election looming neither candidate wants to raise the potential financial disaster looming as it is a turn off for voters but analysts are very concerned at the lack of a plan from either camp to handle the crisis
That article is, quite frankly, laughable (why do I care what a crackpot trying to sell a doomsday book thinks?). The US economy is weak right now, for sure, but where can I find stats that compare to 1992, much less the 1970s or the 1930s? With GDP growth at 3% last quarter, and unemployment under 6% you may have noticed that no one is using the word "recession" anymore. Looking back, cynical economists and pundits are going to have a hard time arguing that a recession happened, much less that we are in an economic catastrophe that is in the top five in the history of the country.
 
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  • #740
but where can I find stats that compare to 1992, much less the 1970s or the 1930s? With GDP growth at 3% last quarter, and unemployment under 6% you may have noticed that no one is using the word "recession" anymore

See my post above about that. The reason you can't compare them is because the measurement standards that they use now are borked.
 
  • #741
I'm aware that the government keeps changing the standards, but that's necessessary and I think the fact that the different pieces of data still track against each other bears out that the adjustments in the calculations are correct.

Remember, the economic crises of the '30s and '70s manifested physically with things like gas lines and investment bankers jumping out of windows.

Yes, some things, like cars, are more expensive today as a fraction of your income than they used to be. But at the same time, things like computers haven't just gotten cheaper, they actually didn't even exist 30 years ago. What you and the writer of that article are actually arguing is that the standard of living is going down, depsite government evidence saying it is going up. But I actually argue the opposite point: the goal posts are being moved too far in the other direction and today we allow someone who owns a tv with satellite connect, an air conditioner, and a microwave to be considered "poor" despite the fact that at some time in the past, those niceties didn't even exist and at some time slightly more recently, they were so expensive only the rich could afford them.
 
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  • #742
Maybe the world will avoid a major recession but the current indications do not look very good.

Fundamentally the strength of the economy is based on people's trust in the financial sector. This trust is rather shaky at this time and the collapse of a major bank could be the final straw
Slowdown in US consumer spending

US spending rose by just 0.2% in July, official figures have shown, as the effects of a government package designed to boost growth wore off.

A separate survey, also released on Friday, said US consumer sentiment was at a 5-month high but warned of tough times ahead.

Personal income fell 0.7% in July, the sharpest fall since August 2005.

Friday's data provides further evidence of the weakness of the US economy after earlier reports of strong US growth.
snip
If the impact of rising prices is factored in, spending actually fell by 0.4% in July, the weakest showing for inflation-adjusted spending in more than four years, the official figures showed.

Inflation, as measured by the rise in personal consumptions index, rose 4.5%, the sharpest rise since February 1991, the government said.

The mix of rising prices and faltering growth presents policymakers with a dilemma, making them reluctant to raise rates to combat inflation, in case the economy slows further.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/7588126.stm

US bank 'to fail within months'

The global financial crisis is set to get worse, with a large US bank likely to collapse in the next few months, a former IMF chief economist has warned.

Kenneth Rogoff's comments came as shares in Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac sank on a report that the home lenders would, in effect, be nationalised.

Despite hopes that the US economy had turned the corner, Mr Rogoff claimed it was "not out of the woods".

"I would even go further to say 'the worst is to come'," he said.

"We're not just going to see mid-sized banks go under in the next few months," said Mr Rogoff, who held the IMF role between 2001 and 2004.

"We're going to see a whopper, we're going to see a big one, one of the big investment banks or big banks."
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/7569903.stm

US inflation fastest since 1991

US prices rose by 5.6% in the year to July, the fastest inflation rate for more than 17 years, figures show.

The rate of inflation was much greater than economists had predicted, driven higher by the 30% increase in energy prices during the period.

Food costs were 6% higher than a year earlier, the figures showed.

The price rises are squeezing consumers further. Inflation-adjusted average weekly earnings fell by 3.1% in July compared with a year earlier.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/7561092.stm
 
  • #743
I'm aware that the government keeps changing the standards, but that's necessessary and I think the fact that the different pieces of data still track against each other bears out that the adjustments in the calculations are correct.

Considering that it was changed in the late 90's I would hardly call it necessary. The problem is that the government can use this new method to manufacture low inflation, even when prices are going up and up and up. And still, the official inflation no longer includes food and energy, while the previous measurements from 10+ years ago did, which makes this whole thing seem like comparing apples and oranges.

Besides, it isn't just the inflation figures that are out of whack, it's also the unemployment . In addition to that I'll share some anecdotal evidence: In 2003 I left Portland (Oregon) for a couple of years. Back then once in a while you'd see a homeless person with a handmade cardboard sign standing on a street corner near an intersection, but not too often. In '05 when I came back to visit my folks before moving to China, I was shocked to see them at most of the intersections we drove past, and what was rather eyecatching was the people doing this, for the most part, were young (they looked like they were in their 20's) and were wearing clothes that were in good condition, almost like they were thrown out a few before I say them. And this was when nothing was wrong with the economy? I hate to imagine what it is now.

Remember, the economic crises of the '30s and '70s manifested physically with things like gas lines and investment bankers jumping out of windows.

Again, apples and oranges. The gas lines were caused by an embargo, caused by a political problem that had economic consequences. In 1930 our banking system had completely collapsed, and we aren't there yet. It's still too early to tell if our current crises will devolve to that state. Unlike during these previous financial crises ('30, '89, etc) that accounting system the banks use now is actually the same kind that Enron used. They hide their debts and use mark to market accounting to inflate their profits. There was supposed to be a new federal accounting standards amendment to ban this practice for good and force them to put all this in the open, but because of this crises the implementation was pushed back from january 2009 to january 2010, so we won't know for a year and a half how sick our banks really are.

What we're seeing now is a dead cat bounce, in a while it will get much worse than it is now, and then we will see the true extent of the recession.

What you and the writer of that article are actually arguing is that the standard of living is going down, depsite government evidence saying it is going up.

So you're trusting the government even though it is blatantly obvious that their statistics for the last 10 years are untrustworthy?

But at the same time, things like computers haven't just gotten cheaper, they actually didn't even exist 30 years ago.

Wrong, the Apple 2 was released in '77, 31 years ago. Even before it there were computers, although the home models at the time were targeted at the DIY type. Even so there were still plenty of mainframes and minicomputers lumbering about the corporate landscape.

But I actually argue the opposite point: the goal posts are being moved too far in the other direction and today we allow someone who owns a tv with satellite connect, an air conditioner, and a microwave

My parents were middle class and couldn't afford either an air conditioner or satellite TV. Did have a nice house though.

But really, the cost of appliances has gone down in real dollar terms. My microwave does the exact same thing as its ancestor 30 years, it just costs less. Poverty is kind of relative from place to place, with $10,000 a year you could live extremely well in China, but you'd be on food stamps in America. Why? The standards of living are much different (for now :P). This is why the definition of poverty is based on income, not whether you can afford a crappy microwave. If you save nothing you might be able get a sat TV, but then again you are only screwing yourself by having to live in a terrible neighborhood.

those niceties didn't even exist and at some time slightly more recently, they were so expensive only the rich could afford them.

Which is a nice DEflationary effect, which is included in the inflation calculations, even the old way. The problem is that costs for many other things like housing and healthcare have been more than enough to offset this.

EDIT: And here's another nice link that delves into the Labor Departments fuzzy numbers:
http://seekingalpha.com/article/71493-creative-math-from-bls-jobs-report
 
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  • #744
russ_watters said:
That's the table I posted and it looks like I missed that - the 4th fifth went up by .08% from 2000 to today, the only to increase among the five brackets. I got one wrong.
From the two tables I've linked, it is clear that adjusted incomes rose a little from 2000 at the 70 percentile and the 80 percentile levels, but not at the 60 percentile or 95 percentile levels. If you do a rough linear interpolation of fractional change in adjusted incomes, you find that about 20% of households near the top saw an increase.

You switched tables on me, Gokul. That's dishonest. The table you linked is the limit of each bracket - the dividing line.
...
In any case, you're looking at the data now - Yea, good for you!
Umm...I've seen the data long before I said anything. I posted both links, switched no tables, and was dishonest at no point. Thanks.

And given the turn of events, it's funny how this went. This, from an earlier post.
russ_watters said:
In any case, Gokul, the data is easy to read and glean whatever particlar data you want out of it. Why not just look at it instead of saying thing sthat are factually wrong and easily checked?
Glad I could convince you to take your own advice.
 
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  • #745
Edit: I meant 90 percentile, not 95 - previous post, line 2.
 
  • #746
Here is an interesting website discussing bad government stats. Keep in mind the author of the website is a conservative Republican.

http://www.shadowstats.com/
 
  • #747
Three points If the ecomony is is such good shape
1) why can't we see to it that everyone even the poor get a decent education? That also means providing enough resorces so that our children can attend school without having to worry about gangs or drug pushers occupying school property, and the surrounding neighborhoods.
2) why can't the minimum wage be adjusted yearly to account for inflation just as are the pensions of federal employees?
3) why who are so many houses being forclosed every month in your own neghborhood. See http://www.foreclosure.com/ and type in your state and/or zip code.
 
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  • #748
aquitaine said:
On top of that the official numbers don't include food and energy, which is grossly misleading because that assumes that people don't pay for food, fuel, and electricity. But those three things have a ripple effect because they make other things more expensive as well.

It's exactly because of said ripple effect that it is NOT misleading to remove food and energy prices from inflation figures. It is not based on the assumption that people don't pay for food or energy, but on the assumption that *everyone* pays for them *all the time*, and so any sustained change in their prices will show up in the cost of all other goods. The reason for removing them from the calculation is that they are both highly volatile, and so would result in meaningless inflation numbers (it would be up 20% one month, then down 15% the next, and so on, making it useless as a basis for policy). It is far better to have their effects "dampened" through the pressure they exert on the price of everything else.
 
  • #749
quadraphonics said:
It's exactly because of said ripple effect that it is NOT misleading to remove food and energy prices from inflation figures. It is not based on the assumption that people don't pay for food or energy, but on the assumption that *everyone* pays for them *all the time*, and so any sustained change in their prices will show up in the cost of all other goods.
I disagree, because the prices of food and energy fall disproportionately on the lower-paid people. Unless the wealthy WANT to spend a whole lot on food and energy, it doesn't cost a wealthy person any more in absolute dollars to eat a healthy diet than a poor person, nor does is cost them significantly more for gasoline to commute to work, etc. Removing price-volatile necessities from the mix is just another way of saying "everything's OK, so quit complaining".
 
  • #750
turbo-1 said:
I disagree, because the prices of food and energy fall disproportionately on the lower-paid people.

Which has what to do with inflation? This is not a question of social policy, but of basic economics and statistics. Volatile indicators are effectively useless as guides to what's actually happening in the economy, and so as bases for policy. A monetary policy based on such an indicator would be grossly inefficient, and so increase unemployment substantially, which would certainly hurt the poor (and everyone else).

As an example, due to the big drops in fuel prices over the past month, an inflation indicator that included them would say that inflation is down by a huge margin right now and so, by your logic, the poor are enjoying a huge benefit.
 
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