News What is Your Idea of the American Dream?

[quantumcarl]

Originally posted by Raven
Enron

American Nightmare.

 

[russ_watters]

Originally posted by Raven
Nike hires workers in Indonesia because labor is cheaper there and people who are already poor need more than the opportunities than the way Nike provides it. Simply put, Nike is taking advantage of the labor laws for its own good and not the good of Indonesia. And yes their economy does grow but not at the rate that other countries who use their resources to increase their own at faster rate and in essence keeps them down from reaching equal competition.

Raven, you are implying that if Nike weren't there, the void would be filled by other compaines that paid more. Were you asleep the day they taught supply and demand in economics class? Where would these other "opportunities" come from? Nike can pay those low wages simply because there are no other jobs for those people. The presence of Nike does NOT keep them from prospering, it keeps them from failing WORSE than they already are.

I would also like to point out that you might want to consider other more damaging corporations. Enron for instance destroyed the environment in India and caused more problems for their economy under the guise of helping it. About a decade ago Enron made a contract with the Indian government to help build damns. The work created floods in populated areas and made millions homeless. To make things worse, Enron was the only corporation capable of cleaning up after themselves and yet they did not do this for free despite their fault.

India prides itself at being "the world's largest democracy." Are you saying that Enron forced them to build these dams? Enron profited from a project that had negative environmental impact - but they did not start, fund, or manage the project. The project existed because the government of India WANTED it to exist and paid Enron a lot of money to make it happen. Negative effects of an ill-advised project are the fault of the entity that comissioned the project, not the entity that carried it out.

Not really, although it would not be a bad idea to help modernize other countries. No what I am suggesting is that when we employ the people and resources of other countries, we should treat them with the same standards that we would treat our own citizens. Is that too much to ask?

Yes, that *IS* too much to ask. How exactly would the US go about enforcing such a requirement? We'd need to set up a labor bureau in every country that had US corporations employing people in it (which is about all of them) and enforce American laws on foreign countries. The term that best describes taking over the functions of foreign governments is IMPERIALISM. I'm sorry, but most countries are going to have to come out of the dark ages largely on their own.

 

[Raven]

In response to Russ

RW: Raven, you are implying that if Nike weren't there, the void would be filled by other compaines that paid more.

Actually I'm not implying that at all. In my opinion, I believe most American corporations would take the same advantages that Nike would on the people of 3rd World Countries. It doesn't, however, make it ethically correct and in my opinion it's simply immoral.

RW: Where would these other "opportunities" come from? Nike can pay those low wages simply because there are no other jobs for those people.

Russ I think it's short sighted to assume Indonesia would not be able to find other "opportunities". I think business opportunities exist all the time and it definitely exists in Indonesia despite the long revolutionary wars they have suffered in the past. Let's not assume Indonesians are incapable of improving themselves without the aid of outside corporations taking advantage of their situation.

The problem I have here is not what Nike "can afford to pay" (as you put it) but what Nike should try to do to help a developing country improve. Nike can afford to pay more than 40 cents an hour and they certainly should pay much more given the billion dollar profits this corporation is capable of generating.

India prides itself at being "the world's largest democracy." Are you saying that Enron forced them to build these dams? Enron profited from a project that had negative environmental impact - but they did not start, fund, or manage the project. Negative effects of an ill-advised project are the fault of the entity that comissioned the project, not the entity that carried it out.

Actually Enron bid for the rights for the contract. India took their offer. But I'm not disputing the fact that India has the right to choose its contracts. I also want to correct you, because Enron did start, fund and manage the project. The problem I have with Enron on this issue is that they had control and botched it. Then when no other bidders came to clean up after them, India was literally faced with the dilemma of hiring Enron again. Enron should have cleaned it up at their cost since they were the culprits to begin with. Thousands of people died due to their screw up. I really can't believe you are trying to defend a corporation with such high ethics as Enron. I think they should take responsibility for there faults.

Lastly, you mentioned that it would be "too much" for corporations to treat the people of other countries as we would treat our own citizens. I think you dug too deeply on that meaning. I am by no means asking American corporations to change the laws of a foreign country. I am merely implying that corporations should keep their own labor ethics in place whenever possible. This includes creating a good working environment for their foreign emplyees and a good living wage. As far as I know we don't have to change any laws in Indonesia to pay their people more than 40 cents an hour. I mean really, can't Nike afford better than that.

Were you asleep the day they taught supply and demand in economics class?

No, I wasn't. I aced economics. However, we aren't really talking about supply and demand in terms of creating profit here. Nike is obviously high in demand and supply can easily made available within the working standards of this country. I think what you fail to understand is that cutting expenses play a huge role in making profit. Nike is simply cutting expenses by going to Indonesia to create their products. The opted to downsize their workforce here in the states and took advantage of the expense cut they would have in foreign countries. They are not helping the American economy in this fashion (in case you missed it -- they downsized and laid-off thousands of Americans and that hurts our economy) and they are not helping the people they employ in other countries by any great means in my opinion. Nike is just trying to make more and more profits for its elite executives.

Don't be blinded by these corporations faults. They do have major faults and they need to be corrected in their practices not defended. Just because they can do it does not mean they should nor does it mean its morally and ethically correct to do so. "Might does not equal right."

 

[quantumcarl]

Originally posted by russ_watters
Raven, you are implying that if Nike weren't there, the void would be filled by other compaines that paid more. Were you asleep the day they taught supply and demand in economics class? Where would these other "opportunities" come from? Nike can pay those low wages simply because there are no other jobs for those people. The presence of Nike does NOT keep them from prospering, it keeps them from failing WORSE than they already are. India prides itself at being "the world's largest democracy." Are you saying that Enron forced them to build these dams? Enron profited from a project that had negative environmental impact - but they did not start, fund, or manage the project. The project existed because the government of India WANTED it to exist and paid Enron a lot of money to make it happen. Negative effects of an ill-advised project are the fault of the entity that comissioned the project, not the entity that carried it out. Yes, that *IS* too much to ask. How exactly would the US go about enforcing such a requirement? We'd need to set up a labor bureau in every country that had US corporations employing people in it (which is about all of them) and enforce American laws on foreign countries. The term that best describes taking over the functions of foreign governments is IMPERIALISM. I'm sorry, but most countries are going to have to come out of the dark ages largely on their own.

There seems to be an antiquated cycle through which a nation thinks it must squeeze its citizens. The one that drags its people through the stone, bronze, iron and industrial age, all with the accompaning industrial polution and gradient pay scales of yesteryear. That's how we got where we are today... now its their turn.

Its ok for China and India to pollute the crap out of everything and to reduce the landscape to rubble... that's how we built this country and look at us now!

But, I see a better way to go about this... if any country would listen and learn from our mistakes... they, first of all, wouldn't be haranged about the Kyoto treaty nor would they have Amnesty International on their coat tails about child slavery etc... if they could only learn from our mistakes here in the Western world.

It would make a good company and a good american dream to create a legitimate and authoritative consulting firm that helps to guide countries through their early stages into the current climate of corporations and administrations. They could compile and present the best ways to avoid the devistation to the environment and their citizenry caused by the one foot forward... 4 steps back process called progress.

 

[russ_watters]

Originally posted by Raven
Actually I'm not implying that at all [rether oppeortunities]...

Russ I think it's short sighted to assume Indonesia would not be able to find other "opportunities".

Those two statements are mutually exclusive. Either someone else will employ people at higher wages in Indonesia or not - the presence of Nike is irrelevant. And the reason I think you are unclear here is this:

I aced economics. However, we aren't really talking about supply and demand in terms of creating profit here.

If you aced econ, then you know that supply and demand applies to all goods and services: labor for example, is a service. Supply and demand DOES apply here. If there were "other opportunities", ie other companies that could turn a profit while paying Indonesians more, they would go to Indonesia and employ the people that Nike is paying less (or Nike would raise its its wages to compete). Thats how supply and demand works in a labor market.

The problem I have here is not what Nike "can afford to pay" (as you put it)

Careful - if its not a direct quote, don't put it in quotes. See my sig for what that is called. I never said it and I never even suggested it. Nike certainly can afford to pay more. That really isn't relevant to whether they SHOULD. Whether they should is a moral and legal question. Legally, they are clearly not obligated to pay more. Morally its a lot tougher. Morally, Indonesia should change its labor laws - or should they? If Indonesia changes their labor laws and enacts a $1/hr minimum wage, problem solved, right? Wrong. Nike (and every other corporation) picks up and moves to Vietnam where they can still pay $.40/hr. Supply and demand again. Raising the minimum wage could HURT Indonesia more than it helps them. So its a tough problem.

I also want to correct you, because Enron did start, fund and manage the project.

[?] [?] Enron funded the project? So this was charity? I don't think so. India PAID Enron to do it - otherwise Enron couldn't have profited.

Enron should have cleaned it up at their cost since they were the culprits to begin with.

You implied before that the project was a flawed concept to begin with. Which is it? Did they screw it up or was the concept flawed? HUGE difference. I must admit that I don't know a whole lot about this project.

quantum, I actually mostly agree with your post there. I went a little further with my argument than I actually believe. Though most would call heavy handed nation building imperialism, I think sometimes it may actually be necessary. Regardless, it would be great if other countries could learn from our mistakes. But its tough and it doesn't always work that way. Besides which, a lot don't WANT our help. They certainly wouldn't pay a consultant to tell them how to run their country.

 

[quantumcarl]

Originally posted by russ_watters
quantum, I actually mostly agree with your post there. I went a little further with my argument than I actually believe. Though most would call heavy handed nation building imperialism, I think sometimes it may actually be necessary. Regardless, it would be great if other countries could learn from our mistakes. But its tough and it doesn't always work that way. Besides which, a lot don't WANT our help. They certainly wouldn't pay a consultant to tell them how to run their country.

If they'll pay Enron to ruin their country... I'm sure they might try paying someone with a good idea to help them run their country.

 

[Zero]

Originally posted by quantumcarl


It would make a good company and a good american dream to create a legitimate and authoritative consulting firm that helps to guide countries through their early stages into the current climate of corporations and administrations. They could compile and present the best ways to avoid the devistation to the environment and their citizenry caused by the one foot forward... 4 steps back process called progress.

Can we somehow skip the corporations, since they are the bane of freedom and personal achievement, not to mention the environment and economy?

 

[kat]

Originally posted by Zero
Can we somehow skip the corporations, since they are the bane of freedom and personal achievement, not to mention the environment and economy?

LOLOLOLOL thanks Zero, I needed a good laugh!
BTW as a small business owner I've been incorporated for almost 10 years now, being incorporated allows me much personal freedom! and has certainaly contributed to my personal achievement!, not to mention I am environmentally green and definitely have contributed to the local economy!

 

[russ_watters]

Originally posted by kat
LOLOLOLOL thanks Zero, I needed a good laugh!
BTW as a small business owner I've been incorporated for almost 10 years now, being incorporated allows me much personal freedom! and has certainaly contributed to my personal achievement!, not to mention I am environmentally green and definitely have contributed to the local economy!

You are soulless and evil.

 

[quantumcarl]

Originally posted by russ_watters
You are soulless and evil.

Please see my "Hell" thread for this type of content!