How to switch from engineering with unknown undergrad name to Physics?

[sldwn12]

Hello, first of all, I would like to apologize if this type of question has been asked too many times and has made people bored. But this question really affected me to the point of depression. So I thought some kind but realistic people here could give me really sensible advice and I decided to post a thread in this forum. I would like to share information about myself, thinking that you would like to give advice.

I am a 19 years old Turk living in Turkey. There was not much of a tradition of doing science in the history of our country (we had to deal with extreme political problems for many years back then) Probably for this reason, we cannot find very successful and well-known universities at the international level in our country.

This year, I've been accepted to the Department of Electrical and Electronics Engineering at a university that is not well known even locally. And I will start my education this year. Since the beginning of high school, all I wanted was to study physics and become a physicist, but my family strictly forced me to choose engineering(I believe that It happens in many families.)

Right now I really can't imagine a version of myself in the future doing anything other than physics. I truly believe it's absolute passion. As you understand, after graduating from engineering, I want to somehow switch to physics at a graduate level and find an academic position in physics.

The research opportunities at universities in my country are truly terrible. I mean, it's not even just about the budget for great tools, researchers are given very little time to do research in my country. In Turkey all universities (even private ones) run according to the directives of the government(You probably thought of a similar Asian country.) and the government does not care about research and only wants lectures to be given to students(This line is not mine, It's said by a Professor of Physics from METU which is locally one of the best university provides education in physics)

So for me, the only way to do real scientific research is to become a physicist at a university in the USA, the UK or Europe. However, as I mentioned above, I have a few problems. The university where I will receive my undergraduate degree is not recognized and this department is not a physics department and universities in my country do not offer any elective courses other than electives covering only specializations within the main department. Really, my only dream is to work as a physicist (if possible as a theoretical physicist.

I'm a fan of Theoretical Condensed Matter Physics) at an institute or university with adequate research opportunities and to get paid enough to not die (Ok yes I'm young and I don't have much idea how important money is but I literally believe what I really need is to follow my passion and nothing else.)

Considering these problems and my goal, what do you really think I should do? Is it a dream for a person who graduated from an unknown university with a different degree to pursue an academic career and do research as a theoretical physicist at a university with really good research facilities? Isn't there a way to realize this?

 

[CrysPhys]

Since the beginning of high school, all I wanted was to study physics and become a physicist, but my family strictly forced me to choose engineering(I believe that It happens in many families.)

Right now I really can't imagine a version of myself in the future doing anything other than physics. I truly believe it's absolute passion.

I'm a fan of Theoretical Condensed Matter Physics) at an institute or university with adequate research opportunities and to get paid enough to not die (Ok yes I'm young and I don't have much idea how important money is but I literally believe what I really need is to follow my passion and nothing else.)

Passion is great, but it needs to be grounded in reality, not some abstract ideal vision. Since you plan on embarking on a long, expensive journey, let's first rewind and discuss your reasons for doing so. What has been your experience with physics so far? Courses, lectures, articles, projects, discussions with physicists ...? Can you relate several concrete instances that ignited your passion in physics (in particular, theoretical condensed matter physics)? What particular problems or phenomena intrigue you?

 

[sldwn12]

Passion is great, but it needs to be grounded in reality, not some abstract ideal vision. Since you plan on embarking on a long, expensive journey, let's first rewind and discuss your reasons for doing so. What has been your experience with physics so far? Courses, lectures, articles, projects, discussions with physicists ...? Can you relate several concrete instances that ignited your passion in physics (in particular, theoretical condensed matter physics)? What particular problems or phenomena intrigue you?

First of all, thank you for reading and intending to give advice.
Throughout my high school life, I was reading popular science books, as many people interested in physics do, and I also tried to understand physics in a different way by reading philosophy books. In high school, I was generally the best kid in physics (even though I loved mathematics, I was not the best). I entered a few local physics Olympiads. I was able to solve some mechanics problems and some intro level electrodynamics problems, but I was eliminated later because I did not study much on electrodynamics (I mean, there were no Maxwell equations in high school, but we had to learn it ourselves somehow, like in many countries).

I believe that I would really love doing research, I mean, in high school math classes, I was trying to prove most of the things I saw on my own, and although this took hours and sometimes days, it was quite fun.

I found a different relationship(that was not included in wikipedia at least) between harmonic series and Euler number. I showed it to the math teachers, however all they did was say they didn't have any idea about that but appreciated my excitement (By the way, I couldn't prove it myself, but the programs I wrote thought it was correct) It wasn't a very complicated thing, probably others have encountered it many times, but I just mentioned it to say that I found it very entertaining.

Math was really fun so I thought it might be really interesting to delve into theoretical physics. Behind this excitement lies the potential to model nature with mathematical methods and thus compose explanations that are logical and compatible with observations.

One of the reasons why I was particularly interested in condensed matter physics was that I thought it was a field that did not have phenomenological problems like quantum gravity. So I really see that there is a huge field of experimentation, and I believe it would be awesome to come up with testable predictions using the theories. Of course, I know how rare and challenging it is to make truly successful theories, but I believe that I will get real pleasure from the process I am in, not only when I make them successfully. However, if I had solved even a tiny problem at least once in my career and had contributed to community somehow, that would make me very happy. Likewise, philosophical problems between mathematics and physics have always attracted my attention(Especially problems like: How do we know what we really know? How can we make sure the information we have is correct? or Why do mathematics so good at describing the nature?)

Since I have not yet taken advanced physics courses, I can only guess what kind of problems I will deal with in real research. However, regarding condensed matter physics, theories of high temperature superconductivity, quantum spin liquids, exotic phases and explaining them with mathematical methods are probably the most interesting things I have ever seen in my life. As I said, the reason why I was particularly interested in condensed matter physics was that I thought that the things predicted by the theories could be tested more easily than in other fields. Maybe this thought is partially true or wrong, I don't know.

These are the things that make me excited, and I don't think I could actually do engineering, so it pains me mentally to think of doing something other than physics. Because there are really strange things out there in nature, and if we will never come to life again (at least in my belief), then can there be anything more important than taking care of the most magnificent things? I've asked this question for years. I truly feel like it's the only thing I can do. I don't really care whether I will be successful or unsuccessful in my career as a physicist, I just believe that I should be a part of this. Thanks

 

[CrysPhys]

* We've had many threads similar to yours. Whenever I've asked the posters for the basis of their passion for physics, I've typically received no answers or, at best, nebulous answers; in one instance I recall, the poster became openly hostile when I pressed for an answer. You have readily provided an answer, and your answer is at least plausible. So that's a good start.

* In response to your specific question (how do I get from a mediocre undergrad engineering program at a university in Turkey to a good PhD program in theoretical condensed matter physics in the US, UK, or Europe), the answer is that there is no likely path. So you either need to change your path or change your end goal.

* If you decide to maintain your existing end goal, you need a solid undergrad physics program. If there is no such program either at your local university or any other university in your country (I have no knowledge of universities in Turkey, so I'm accepting your evaluation), then you need to go elsewhere.

* If you apply for undergrad universities in other countries, financial support will of course be a major constraint. I'm in the US. One option that's often overlooked is to apply to small liberal arts colleges. Some have strong undergrad programs in physics, encourage international students, and, most importantly, have large endowments. Once I served as an industry mentor for university students. One was a physics undergrad from China at Carleton College; another was a physics undergrad from a European country (somewhat complicated situation) at Wellesley College. Wellesley is restricted to female students only. If you happen to be female, it is an excellent choice because it has an exchange program with MIT. So small liberal arts colleges in the US are an option you should explore. There's no harm in applying; often they will even waive the application fee for those who can't afford it. But be aware that you do need to present a strong application (so far we haven't discussed your academic record).

* Good luck. I'll leave it for others to chime in with further options in the US and options in other countries (if any).

 

[sldwn12]

* We've had many threads similar to yours. Whenever I've asked the posters for the basis of their passion for physics, I've typically received no answers or, at best, nebulous answers; in one instance I recall, the poster became openly hostile when I pressed for an answer. You have readily provided an answer, and your answer is at least plausible. So that's a good start.

* In response to your specific question (how do I get from a mediocre undergrad engineering program at a university in Turkey to a good PhD program in theoretical condensed matter physics in the US, UK, or Europe), the answer is that there is no likely path. So you either need to change your path or change your end goal.

* If you decide to maintain your existing end goal, you need a solid undergrad physics program. If there is no such program either at your local university or any other university in your country (I have no knowledge of universities in Turkey, so I'm accepting your evaluation), then you need to go elsewhere.

* If you apply for undergrad universities in other countries, financial support will of course be a major constraint. I'm in the US. One option that's often overlooked is to apply to small liberal arts colleges. Some have strong undergrad programs in physics, encourage international students, and, most importantly, have large endowments. Once I served as an industry mentor for university students. One was a physics undergrad from China at Carleton College; another was a physics undergrad from a European country (somewhat complicated situation) at Wellesley College. Wellesley is restricted to female students only. If you happen to be female, it is an excellent choice because it has an exchange program with MIT. So small liberal arts colleges in the US are an option you should explore. There's no harm in applying; often they will even waive the application fee for those who can't afford it. But be aware that you do need to present a strong application (so far we haven't discussed your academic record).

* Good luck. I'll leave it for others to chime in with further options in the US and options in other countries (if any).

Thanks for your recommendations. My chances of going abroad are really small, and there are no universities in my country that offer decent physics programs. I wonder if I could somehow grasp the physics undergraduate courses very well (by studying on my own), do research internships in a few places, even if they are not of very high quality, and get a master's degree in theoretical physics at a university that is not bad (I know I'm making a lot of assumptions, but I'm trying to understand whether it is possible to achieve this somehow). Would you still think that doing a PhD at a university that is at least in the top 200 is still unlikely?

 

[CrysPhys]

Sorry, there's no point in addressing such a nebulous hypothetical. But you should also consider how low a program are you willing to go to. Remember, even for PhDs from top programs, the chances of landing a slot as a research professor at a university are small.

 

[gwnorth]

My chances of going abroad are really small

So long as very small is not 0, I would recommend looking at Germany and Switzerland.

 

[Muu9]

Take a look here: https://www.physes.uni-leipzig.de/e...national-physics-studies-program-ipsp-honours

 

[Vanadium 50]

As @CrysPhys says, you need to change your goal or change your path. If you stay on this path, you will end up where it takes you.

 

[sldwn12]

As CrysPhys says, you need to change your goal or change your path. If you stay on this path, you will end up where it takes you.

I understand and agree with what you all say. In terms of changing my goal, how difficult do you think it would be to focus on applied mathematics or mathematical engineering compared to focusing on physics at graduate level and then research oppurtunities? So it's like mathematical physics but its engineering version? I don't even know if anyone has done this, but I wanted to ask maybe you might have heard something about it.

 

[Vanadium 50]

I have never heard of "mathematical engineering". The alternative, non-mathematical engineering, is terrifying.

 

[sldwn12]

I have never heard of "mathematical engineering". The alternative, non-mathematical engineering, is terrifying.

That's my bad wikipedia says It's actually called "Engineering mathematics". https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Engineering_mathematics

 

[CrysPhys]

I understand and agree with what you all say. In terms of changing my goal, how difficult do you think it would be to focus on applied mathematics or mathematical engineering compared to focusing on physics at graduate level and then research oppurtunities? So it's like mathematical physics but its engineering version? I don't even know if anyone has done this, but I wanted to ask maybe you might have heard something about it.

Search for graduate programs in the specialized branches of applied math that are of interest to you and check out their admissions requirements. Several I glanced at wanted an undergrad degree in math/applied math or engineering with specified math courses. See whether you can satisfy the requirements at your local university.

 

[Vanadium 50]

Let's back up a bit.

If you were to go to the best university in Turkey and were the best student in physics in a decade you would have a shot at a school in the West. You would still have to complete with hordes of students from India and China, but you'd have a good chance, particularly at schools other than the "big names".

But you don't want to do that.

You want to please your parents, so you don't want to major in physics.

You have chosen a university that is not the best.

While I think Olympiads are not a good predictor of physics success, you haven't exactly excelled there.

So, each step you take off the path decreases your odds of success. I would estimate them to be so close to zero as to be indistinguishable from zero. Hence the "change your path or change you goal" advice.

Can you "wiggle" around your chosen path? Sure. Will it succeed? Probably not.

 

[CrysPhys]

I understand and agree with what you all say. In terms of changing my goal, how difficult do you think it would be to focus on applied mathematics or mathematical engineering compared to focusing on physics at graduate level and then research oppurtunities? So it's like mathematical physics but its engineering version? I don't even know if anyone has done this, but I wanted to ask maybe you might have heard something about it.

So you are willing to budge from your one true passion. Which is good. Perhaps you should consider a more substantial shift. That is, given your constraints, what successful career can you pursue in Turkey? As long as it's a career that you don't actively dislike to the point that it gnaws at you, can you become so successful that you are financially independent? There are a lot more options for university admissions if you can pay your own way. If so, then you can later study physics and pursue research strictly for your own personal satisfaction (and not worry about landing a career as a professor).

"And if you can't be with the one you love, honey
Love the one you're with"
-- Stephen Stills

 

[CrysPhys]

In terms of changing my goal, how difficult do you think it would be to focus on applied mathematics or mathematical engineering compared to focusing on physics at graduate level and then research oppurtunities? So it's like mathematical physics but its engineering version?

That's my bad wikipedia says It's actually called "Engineering mathematics". https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Engineering_mathematics

I never heard of these terms either. But the Wiki link you cited reads:

Mathematical engineering (or engineering mathematics) is a branch of applied mathematics, concerning mathematical methods and techniques that are typically used in engineering and industry.


And, as you discussed, "mathematical physics" is a well-accepted term. It doesn't lead to reactions of "Huh???". So "mathematical engineering" should at least be a plausible counterpart.

 

[Vanadium 50]

Have you considered moving to Germany? You need to move out of Turkey eventually to reach your goals. Why wait?

Besides, isn't the 4th largest Turkish city Dortmund?