Is Sarkozy addressing the ongoing violence in French suburbs effectively?

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Discussion Overview

The discussion centers around the effectiveness of Sarkozy's response to ongoing violence in French suburbs, with participants exploring the nature of the violence, its implications, and comparisons to other regions. The conversation includes elements of political commentary, social analysis, and differing perceptions of safety and order.

Discussion Character

  • Debate/contested
  • Conceptual clarification
  • Exploratory

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants highlight Sarkozy's statement that violence in French suburbs is a daily occurrence, questioning the adequacy of the government's response.
  • Others suggest that the violence may be more indicative of a popular revolt rather than criminal gang activity.
  • There are contrasting views on the significance of the violence, with some arguing that 20-40 cars being burned nightly is alarming, while others downplay it as a temporary issue.
  • Participants discuss the implications of crime statistics, with one noting that the murder rate in the U.S. is significantly higher than in France, suggesting a different context for evaluating safety.
  • Some express skepticism about the credibility of reports regarding the number of cars burned, questioning the sources of such information.
  • There is a debate about whether the situation in France reflects a broader societal issue or if it is being sensationalized compared to other countries' experiences with violence.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants do not reach a consensus; multiple competing views remain regarding the nature of the violence, its implications, and the effectiveness of the government's response. The discussion reflects a range of opinions on whether the situation is a serious problem or exaggerated.

Contextual Notes

Some participants reference specific statistics and incidents without providing full context or verification, leading to uncertainty about the accuracy of claims made regarding violence levels and comparisons to other regions.

sid_galt
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Just read this article, especially the last paragraph(http://www.iht.com/articles/2005/10/31/news/france.php")

Sarkozy says that violence in French suburbs is a daily fact of life.

Since the start of the year, 9,000 police cars have been stoned and, each night, 20 to 40 cars are torched, Sarkozy said in an interview last week with the newspaper Le Monde.

Sarkozy is the Interior Minister of France


Are the French too weak to stand up to these gangsters?
 
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Something tells me its not gangsters but closer to a popular revolt.
 
Hey, there is testosterone everywhere, nothing unusual, just an incident France is very peaceful, keep walking, people
 
Are you being sarcastic Andre?

'coz 20-40 burnt cars/night is not peaceful at all.
 
Just send a riot squad from LA, this is nothing :P
 
sid_galt said:
Are you being sarcastic Andre?
'coz 20-40 burnt cars/night is not peaceful at all.
Hey ... they used to burn sheep.

I guess PETA went after them for that.
 
The Smoking Man said:
Hey ... they used to burn sheep.
I guess PETA went after them for that.

Now i want to laugh as if you were kidding...

yet i DO remember something in Europe where like, people were dieing and there was destruction and PETA comes in and demands the animals be left out of it and cared for. But then again as I continue to ponder this hilarious situation... i think its actually africa and there was something with putting bombs on camels (which makes me think maybe its the middle east instead).

In any case, hilarious.
 
Pengwuino said:
Now i want to laugh as if you were kidding...
yet i DO remember something in Europe where like, people were dieing and there was destruction and PETA comes in and demands the animals be left out of it and cared for. But then again as I continue to ponder this hilarious situation... i think its actually africa and there was something with putting bombs on camels (which makes me think maybe its the middle east instead).
In any case, hilarious.
No, I think that was the old Johnny Carson Joke...

"Folks, I don't want to worry you but Iran has just gone nuclear ... Don't worry too much because they still have to drop it off the back of an ox cart."
 
Are you being sarcastic Andre?

'coz 20-40 burnt cars/night is not peaceful at all.

France is generally peaceful.. I mean would you not say the States is peaceful internally? What with the aftermath of katrina, LA Riots etc etc
 
  • #10
Anttech said:
What with the aftermath of katrina, LA Riots etc etc

Are you seriously thinking a few days of trouble in 2 cities years (and actually we're talking about over a decade) apart shows internal problems?? And of course most of the sensationalized reports coming out of NO ended up having no proof...
 
  • #11
Anttech said:
France is generally peaceful.. I mean would you not say the States is peaceful internally? What with the aftermath of katrina, LA Riots etc etc

The Minister said that this violence is a daily fact of life in the suburbs. LA riots as Pengwuino pointed out lasted only for a few days and happened more than 13 years ago.
 
  • #12
America has 8.5 times as many murders per head than France. Not sure I'd call that especially peaceful.
 
  • #13
El Hombre,

First of all absolute numbers matter. If France has say 1 murder per 1000 people while America has 8 murders per thousand people, while not healthy it would not be alarming either. If France has 10 murders per 1000 people while America has 80 murders per 1000 people, it would be very alarming.

Secondly, murder is a sign of high crime while car burning is more of a sign of anarchism and chaos. For instance if 20 people die in riots, it will be much worse than if 20 people are murdered during the same period of time because while one is due to high crime, the other is due to a collapse of law in the society.
 
  • #14
sid_galt said:
El Hombre,
First of all absolute numbers matter. If France has say 1 murder per 1000 people while America has 8 murders per thousand people, while not healthy it would not be alarming either. If France has 10 murders per 1000 people while America has 80 murders per 1000 people, it would be very alarming.
Secondly, murder is a sign of high crime while car burning is more of a sign of anarchism and chaos. For instance if 20 people die in riots, it will be much worse than if 20 people are murdered during the same period of time because while one is due to high crime, the other is due to a collapse of law in the society.
I'd still rather have my car burnt than be shot, thanks. Talking about absolute numbers, how many cars were burned per 1000 cars in France? If it was the odd one, by your own logic, not too much to be concerned about. If it was 80 per 1000 cars burned, then I agree we should be worried. :smile:
 
  • #15
20-40 cars burnt/day is an alarming situation. Such things happen in riots. The fact that this is an everyday affair in France means France has reached an alarming stage.
 
  • #16
Are you seriously thinking a few days of trouble in 2 cities years (and actually we're talking about over a decade) apart shows internal problems?? And of course most of the sensationalized reports coming out of NO ended up having no proof...

Are you seriously thinking that France has Riot problems that have been happening for Years and Years? The reason I stated those two situations is because that is what is happening in France right now.. Geez and you think I am a sensationalist!
 
  • #17
MaxS said:
Something tells me its not gangsters but closer to a popular revolt.
Hey, no denying that France has a problem. And in Germany Neo Nazis regularly come in the news with arson and worse. But what does this prove? Anybody who has a comparative study of riots and/or violence in general between different countries?

But look at this:
http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0198352.html

France and Spain are the world's biggest tourist destinations, dwarfing the US if compared in size or population. That's probably because it is SOOO bad and SOOO dangerous to go there.

I think this whole France thing is just jealousy.
 
  • #18
Jealous of France? You got to be kidding me!

I have not suggested that it is bad and dangerous to live in France. What I am suggesting is that French suburbs are facing a severe problem with riot type violence.

Ever heard of 40 cars being burnt every night in America, Britain, Germany?
 
  • #19
sid_galt said:
Jealous of France? You got to be kidding me!
I have not suggested that it is bad and dangerous to live in France. What I am suggesting is that French suburbs are facing a severe problem with riot type violence.
Ever heard of 40 cars being burnt every night in America, Britain, Germany?
Can you read French? Perhaps you should try to read at the source if this is of so much concern to you. Where do you read 40 cars per night in this day per day report?

http://www.lemonde.fr/web/module_chrono/0,11-0@2-3226,32-705641@51-704172,0.html

Again, there IS a problem. Keep it in perspective.
 
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  • #20
sid_galt said:
First of all absolute numbers matter. If France has say 1 murder per 1000 people while America has 8 murders per thousand people, while not healthy it would not be alarming either.
Quite alarming actually. The current rate in the U.S is more like 8 per 100000.

http://www.fbi.gov/ucr/cius_04/offenses_reported/offense_tabulations/table_01-01a.html

But the principle you cite is correct. For instance, your chances of being crushed in a stampede of cattle probably increase outside of cities, but that is not a valid reason to avoid the countryside.
 
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  • #21
Mercator said:
Can you read French? Perhaps you should try to read at the source if this is of so much concern to you. Where do you read 40 cars per night in this day per day report?
That's what I'm wondering. I can't find that figure from anything except fringe sites. Which doesn't exactly lend it credibility, you'd think mainstream american media would be all over this.

Seems like some joker making stuff up out of a little violence in Paris.
 
  • #22
I don't know. The French Interior Minister said this himself. Hardly a fringe source.
 
  • #23
Funny, Americans don't usually concern themselves with things like this unless there is an American in one of the cars...

Or they have an axe to grind.

Couldn't be because they are cheese eating surrender monkeys could it ... otherwise, why would ANY American care?

Have another freedom fry.
 
  • #24
Latest BBC report I could find:
French President Jacques Chirac warned of a "dangerous situation" and called for calm after six nights of riots in suburbs in the north-east of Paris.
At least 15 cars were torched overnight in Aulnay-sous-Bois. Police fired rubber bullets and arrested 34 people.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/4399510.stm

And the same article slips in just a little bit of 'analysis' at the end:
Unemployment and social problems are rife in many of France's poorer suburban areas.

Police have reported sporadic incidents involving mobile groups of youths in the Val-d'Oise, Seine-et-Marne, Hauts-de-Seine and Yvelines regions of Paris.
So I'd go with the theory that this is more than just an isolated incident. People whose lives this neocon agenda of ruthless, untamed capitalism ruins are just not going to take it lying down, it seems. It will be interesting to see where in the world the whole thing spirals completely out of control. France has a good history of popular revolutions, so anything is possible...
 
  • #25
Alexandra,
Unemployment is no excuse for rioting in streets.
90% of the times, its there own fault anyway that they are not employed.
 
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  • #26
sid_galt said:
Alexandra,
Unemployment is no excuse for rioting in streets.
90% of the times, its there own fault anyway that they are not employed.
I'm not excusing, sid_galt, I'm analysing. The point I was trying to make is that when people have no hope of leading a productive and reasonably secure life, anything could happen - not everyone will react by just lying in a gutter and dying quietly. Some people will turn against 'the system', or whatever they think is causing the misery in their lives. To say this is not to urge people to do these things - it is merely an observation.
 
  • #27
sid_galt said:
I don't know. The French Interior Minister said this himself. Hardly a fringe source.
Yeah but I can't find anyone else but 'fringe sources' to tell me this. I can't confirm that he actually said that, and that distresses me, you'd think it would be all over the news, FOX would love to get it's hands on the French government admitting incompetence, I mean, c'mon.
 
  • #28
Art said:
Here's a mainline source for Smurf reporting on the current riots; http://www.sky.com/skynews/article/0,,30200-13457760,00.html
It doesn't mention the source of the current unrest but it seems to have started in high immigrant areas following the deaths of two youngsters.
Oh there's plenty of mainstream sources about the riots. It's that quote from the minister and the 40 cars per night statistic I can't find anywhere.
 
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  • #29
Smurf said:
Oh there's plenty of mainstream sources about the riots. It's that quote from the minister and the 40 cars per night statistic I can't find anywhere.

According the http://www.guardian.co.uk/worldlatest/story/0,1280,-5392545,00.html", car torchings are a daily fact of life in French suburbs with thousands burned each month.
Even though this does not provide evidence that the quote of the minister was genuine, it pretty much proves that the car burning statistic is in the 20-40 range.
 
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  • #30
Riots erupted in an outburst of anger in Clichy-sous-Bois over the accidental electrocution Oct. 27 of two teenagers who fled a soccer game and hid in a power substation when they saw police enter the area. Youths in the neighborhood suspect that police chased Traore Bouna, 15, and Zyed Benna, 17, to their deaths.

http://www.cantonrep.com/index.php?Category=24&ID=250955&r=1

I am a bit surprised by this happening in France. It reminds me of Watts in Los Angeles in 1965, Or the burn baby burn riots in Detroit. These incidents have always involved people who live in poverty. And typically ,in this country, have been triggered by an incident involving police.

The latest news I read said that it has spread to twenty towns. There must be some very discontent young people in France.
 
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