What's your opinions on the Axiom of Choice?

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    Axiom Choice Opinions
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Discussion Overview

The discussion centers around the Axiom of Choice (AC), particularly its implications, acceptance, and the controversies surrounding it within the field of mathematics. Participants explore its role in various mathematical theorems, its relationship with other axioms like the Principle of Induction, and the philosophical considerations of accepting or rejecting AC.

Discussion Character

  • Debate/contested
  • Conceptual clarification
  • Technical explanation

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants express admiration for the Axiom of Choice, finding it beautiful and useful in proving many theorems.
  • Others are more skeptical, particularly regarding the uncountable variant of AC, and express a preference for avoiding its use when possible.
  • It is noted that many theorems, including those in measure theory, depend on AC, leading to a discussion about the existence of nonmeasurable sets.
  • Some participants argue that the acceptance of AC is contingent on the desired power in mathematical theories dealing with infinities.
  • There is a mention of paradoxes associated with AC, including Russell's paradox, and the historical context of set theory's development.
  • One participant questions the possibility of defining a choice function for certain infinite sets, suggesting that while some methods may seem viable, they ultimately fail for specific subsets of real numbers.
  • Another participant clarifies that mathematical induction does not depend on AC, emphasizing the independence of transfinite induction from it.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants exhibit a range of opinions on the Axiom of Choice, with some supporting its use and others expressing skepticism or outright refusal to accept it. The discussion remains unresolved regarding the philosophical implications and practical necessity of AC in mathematics.

Contextual Notes

Some participants highlight the limitations of AC in defining choice functions for certain infinite collections, pointing out that the existence of a choice function is problematic when no natural choice can be made. Additionally, the equivalence of AC with other axioms, such as mathematical induction, is discussed but remains nuanced and not fully settled.

  • #61
Crosson said:
Now, to try an answer to your question I would say that the eigenvectors of the position operator in the position representation are:

\hat{x} = x \rightarrow eigenVectors(\hat{x}) = \{\phi_{x'}:\mathbb{R} \rightarrow \mathbb{C} | \phi_{x'}(x) \mapsto \delta(x - x') , x'\in \mathbb{R}\}

\hat{p} = i \frac{\partial}{\partial x} \rightarrow eigenVectors(\hat{p}) = \{\phi_{k}:\mathbb{C} \rightarrow \mathbb{R} | \phi_{k}(x) \mapsto e^{i k x} , k\in \mathbb{R}\}

In physics we say that either of these sets of eigenvectors are an uncountable basis!

The linear combinations become definite integrals covering the range of the eigenvalues:

f(x) = \int_{-\infty} ^{\infty} c_{x&#039;} \phi_{x&#039;}(x) dx&#039; [/itex]<br /> <br /> where the coefficients are given by Fourier&#039;s trick:<br /> <br /> c_{x&amp;#039;} = \int_{-\infty} ^{\infty} f(x) \phi_{x&amp;#039;}(x) dx [/itex]&lt;br /&gt; &lt;br /&gt; I&amp;#039;m interested to learn more about what&amp;#039;s really going on here.
&lt;br /&gt; Well, the thing here is that neither of these &amp;quot;bases&amp;quot; contain a single element of your Hilbert space! &lt;img src=&quot;https://www.physicsforums.com/styles/physicsforums/xenforo/smilies/oldschool/bugeye.gif&quot; class=&quot;smilie&quot; loading=&quot;lazy&quot; alt=&quot;:bugeye:&quot; title=&quot;Bug Eye :bugeye:&quot; data-shortname=&quot;:bugeye:&quot; /&gt; The position and momentum operators, acting on our Hilbert space, actually do not have any nonzero eigenvectors.&lt;br /&gt; &lt;br /&gt; There are at least two ways to make sense of this. One is via a &amp;quot;rigged Hilbert space&amp;quot;, where in addition to our Hilbert space, we consider a smaller subspace of &amp;quot;test functions&amp;quot;, its dual space of &amp;quot;generalized functions&amp;quot;. The position and momentum operators have eigenvectors in this larger space of generalized functions. (distribution is another buzzword to look for)&lt;br /&gt; &lt;br /&gt; Another is through a &amp;quot;direct integral&amp;quot; of Hilbert spaces, which generalizes the (finite) direct sum of Hilbert spaces in a way similar to how the ordinary integral can be viewed as generalizing finite sums of numbers. We can write our Hilbert space as a direct integral of a copy of &lt;b&gt;C&lt;/b&gt; at each point in the real line. Now, your &amp;quot;basis vectors&amp;quot; are not elements of our Hilbert space of interest, but instead a choice of basis vectors for these individual Hilbert spaces.
 
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  • #62
ice109 said:
now i haven't read the whole thread but why again are we discussing the truth value of an axiom?
Because people aren't used to separating the notion of a mathematical theory and their favorite interpretation of that theory.
 

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