Where am I going wrong (energy transfer between black bodies)?

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around a thought experiment concerning energy transfer between two black bodies, focusing on the implications of radiative power and temperature changes. Participants explore the theoretical aspects of energy concentration and the limitations imposed by physical laws, particularly in the context of black body radiation and the Stefan-Boltzmann law.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • The initial poster presents a scenario where energy from a larger black body (BB1) is focused onto a smaller black body (BB2), leading to the conclusion that BB2 would reach a temperature 10 times that of BB1.
  • Some participants argue that BB2 cannot radiate more power than it receives from BB1, emphasizing that the total radiated power from BB1 is limited to 1 watt.
  • Another participant points out the assumption that all energy from a 1 m² surface can be focused onto a much smaller area, suggesting this is not feasible due to conservation of etendue and view factors.
  • The initial poster acknowledges the assumption made about energy focusing and expresses intent to research the conservation of etendue further.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants generally disagree on the feasibility of concentrating the radiated energy from BB1 onto BB2 as proposed. There is no consensus on the implications of the assumptions made regarding energy transfer and temperature increase.

Contextual Notes

Participants highlight limitations related to the assumptions about energy focusing and the conservation of etendue, which may affect the validity of the initial conclusions drawn by the poster.

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TL;DR
Where am I going wrong (energy transfer between black bodies)?
I have a problem with a very basic ‘thought experiment’. I can’t see my mistake(s) - I’m pretty sure there must be at least one! So I’m accepting likely humiliation/embarrassment and asking if anyone can explain where I’m going wrong...

The surface of a black body (BB1) is at temperature T and radiates at R W/m².

An ‘optical’ system collects/redirects/focuses the radiated energy from 1m² of BB1 onto a smaller black body (BB2) of area 10⁻⁴m². We now have R watts directed onto 10⁻⁴m². That’s an incident intensity onto BB2 of 10⁴R W/m².

When BB2 reaches equilibrium, the power it receives (R watts) will be the same as the power it emits. So BB2 will emit R watts from an area of 10⁻⁴m². BB2’s surface is radiating at 10⁴R W/m².

Since a black body's radiated power/unit area is proportional to ##T_{abs}^4## this means BB2’s temperature must be 10T.

So energy is spontaneously flowing from an object at temperature T to one at temperature 10T. Err...
 
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You still only have 1 watt of radiated power to be transferred among bodies.
BB2 can't radiate more than it receives from the 1 m x 1 m of BB1 surface.
 
You appear to be assuming that all of the energy leaving a 1 square meter surface can be focused down to 1 square cm. It cannot. This is related to the conservation of etendue and view factors. I believe, without calculating it, that at most 1/10000 of the light can be focused that small.
 
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Lnewqban said:
You still only have 1 watt of radiated power to be transferred among bodies.
BB2 can't radiate more than it receives from the 1 m x 1 m of BB1 surface.
Not quite with you. The radiated power from 1m² BB1 is equal to the power received by (the much smaller) BB2. This, in turn is the same as the radiated power from BB2. Agreed,

But this means the power/m² radiated by BB2 is 10⁴ times the power/m² originally radiated by BB1. (Because BB2 is so much smaller than BB1.)

From the Stefan-Boltzmann law, this means BB2's temperature must be (⁴√(10⁴) =) 10 times that of BB1.
 
Dale said:
You appear to be assuming that all of the energy leaving a 1 square meter surface can be focused down to 1 square cm. It cannot. This is related to the conservation of etendue and view factors. I believe, without calculating it, that at most 1/10000 of the light can be focused that small.
Aha! I have indeed made that assumption. I'm not familiar with the conservation of etendue. I'll go and do some reading. Many thanks!

(Minor edit.)
 
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