News Where are you on the political compass this election?

[drizzle]

LOL @ Astro and JS

 

[Jimmy Snyder]

Here you see the problem
http://www.politicalcompass.org/charts/crowdgraphpng.php?Me=10%2C-10&My_wife=-10%2C10

 

[drizzle]

 

[Evo]

I worry about people afraid to post, what did they get that they're afraid to post?

 

[George Jones]

http://www.politicalcompass.org/facebook/pcgraphpng.php?ec=-7.00&soc=-5.49

 

[Evo]

Here's the second version of Ryan's test. These answers seem to be how I lean strongest.

Still a statist.

Of course, the test has it's own definition of statist. -

statist: the marriage of liberal and conservative aspects of big government. Supports both the conservative "family" agenda and the liberal "social" agenda. Supports both major diplomatic and military involvement abroad

The above definition I mostly agree with.

 

[Pythagorean]

OK, but only if it doesn't count toward the final grade.
http://www.politicalcompass.org/facebook/pcgraphpng.php?ec=10&soc=-10

Ok, now try to be more serious. Is there a knob I can hook you up to and fine tune until I get the result I'm looking for? Perhaps I should ask your wife

 

[rootX]

I worry about people afraid to post, what did they get that they're afraid to post?

Who?!

ahha nvm, saw micro post below me

 

[micromass]

I wonder why Astronuc and Jimmy Snyder refuse to show their results... What's the matter?? You got the same scores as Hitler and Stalin??

 

[Jimmy Snyder]

I forget my real score. It was somewhere around 4, -7. However, many of the questions could only be answered in ways that were least different from how I actually feel. So even rounding off to one significant digit is probably too many.
http://www.politicalcompass.org/facebook/pcgraphpng.php?ec=4&soc=-7

 

[Evo]

I wonder why Astronuc and Jimmy Snyder refuse to show their results... What's the matter?? You got the same scores as Hitler and Stalin??

Margaret Thatcher?

 

[russ_watters]

http://www.politicalcompass.org/facebook/pcgraphpng.php?ec=2.00&soc=-1.28

This is pretty much in line with every one of these I've done since I did my first one in Junior High. I think some of my opinions have moved to the left and some to the right, but they've largely averaged out. And I think I'm pretty good at not letting passion affect the strength of my beliefs.

 

[russ_watters]

Many of these questions are stupid and cannot possibly be used to pick a political position. For example, the question about abstract art has nothing to do with politics.

How did you answer it?

I disagree strongly with you here. I think that politics is part psychology and the goal of this quiz is to figure out how your brain works. I don't fully understand the purpose of the question, but its existence seems appropriate to me.

I couldn't finish it either. Too many loaded questions.

Isn't that the point of the test?

I don't hold too much stock in questionnaires like this. Whilst they can be correct they tend to bias in favour of one side or another simply by the flawed way questions are asked, questions that are flawed and bias/stereotypical scores for answers.

At worst, such a test might be drawn with a center that seems to be in the "wrong" place, but as their FAQ points out, they tried to draw it in a way that would make it stable WRT time and location, lest they end up with a moving target. I tend to prefer a US-centered chart for discussion of US politics or a West centered chart for discussion of international politics, but as long as we're all clearly using the same scale, the relative positions are much more important than the absolute ones -- and are still useful.

I also (again) find it very odd to criticize a poll like this for "bias". Measuring bias is precisely the purpose of this poll, so every question must be designed to reflect/flesh-out a bias!

 

[russ_watters]

Don't get me wrong, I'm all for serving humanity. It's just that if the interests of trans-national corporations are also served, then count me out.

Me too. Yesterday, I was going to help a car accident victim, but turned around and walked away when I realized they were driving a VW bug and wearing a tie-dyed shirt!

 

[russ_watters]

Wow, quite a crowd in the upper right quadrant:

I think it would be difficult to be a leader and not be authoritarian.

 

[russ_watters]

Here's a different quiz that gave me a slightly different score on a chart
http://www.nolanchart.com/survey.php

It gave me pretty much exactly the same score as the previous test: conservative/libertarian (in the right-hand box, just above center).

I didn't really like the style of the quiz, as it is tough to make the potential answers all uniformly distributed: that's much easier to do if you give a structured scale for answering each question, as the other quiz did. In addition, it seemed like the answers mixed different lines of reasoning that could equally apply, making it tough to differentiate between them. Still, the two tests had similar results, so I guess they're both doing something right.

 

[S_Happens]

-2.12, -3.56

 

[rootX]

I don't hold too much stock in questionnaires like this. Whilst they can be correct they tend to bias in favour of one side or another simply by the flawed way questions are asked, questions that are flawed and bias/stereotypical scores for answers.

Here's a different quiz that gave me a slightly different score on a chart
http://www.nolanchart.com/survey.php

I was exactly the mirror of that along the vertical axis, near the bottom of Conservative box.

 

[Astronuc]

I wonder why Astronuc and Jimmy Snyder refuse to show their results... What's the matter?? You got the same scores as Hitler and Stalin??

In my case, the questions are irrelevant. I'm just passing through.

 

[russ_watters]

Astronuc revealed a shocking, dirty little secret in Frankenstorm Chat on Monday. But I don't think it disqualifies him from being allowed to have a political position.

 

[Mentalist]

In my case, the questions are irrelevant. I'm just passing through.

Lol, that is an obvious evasion.

 

[Astronuc]

If it helps, I'm apparently between Gandhi and the Dalai Lama.

I believe in personal responsibility, accountability and social obligations.

 

[OmCheeto]

If it helps, I'm apparently between Gandhi and the Dalai Lama.

I believe in personal responsibility, accountability and social obligations.

And that is why I voted for you in the "who should be an Admin" poll.

 

[OmCheeto]

...Frankenstorm Chat on Monday. ...

?

Had to work on Monday...

i hate missing chat.

 

[Ryan_m_b]

I also (again) find it very odd to criticize a poll like this for "bias". Measuring bias is precisely the purpose of this poll, so every question must be designed to reflect/flesh-out a bias!

By bias I meant that it treats certain positions as stereotypical and not necessarily reflective of certain political beliefs.

 

[Pythagorean]

There's apparently no party of reason; you must chose ideology over reason. But yeah, I still think it puts most people in the right ball park.

The biggest problem is the psychological hill we have to climb to answer the questions (which some of us refuse to climb) but once you get there, it's not all so bad.

 

[russ_watters]

By bias I meant that it treats certain positions as stereotypical and not necessarily reflective of certain political beliefs.

We have no way of knowing how it rates any questions. Perhaps you saw a question as being a misrepresentation of a liberal position, but really the point was to test the response of conservatives to the caricature? Or just that conservatives would view the isssue differently, even not being a caricature of their view. Do you have any examples you can remember of such questions?

 

[Pythagorean]

I was starting to report on specific questions, but I lost the post and didn't have the heart to do it over. Some of them just can't be answered agree/disagree because they depend on circumstance.

 

[micromass]

We have no way of knowing how it rates any questions. Perhaps you saw a question as being a misrepresentation of a liberal position, but really the point was to test the response of conservatives to the caricature? Or just that conservatives would view the question differently, even without being a caricature. Do you have any examples you can remember of such questions?

I think that the fact that most people here score libertarian-left is a clear indication that the poll is biased to that side. I don't believe for a second that almost everybody on PF is libertarian and left.

 

[russ_watters]

I think that the fact that most people here score libertarian-left is a clear indication that the poll is biased to that side. I don't believe for a second that almost everybody on PF is libertarian and left.

[shrug] After talking to people on PF for 8 years, it is exactly what I would have expected.

[edit] Er -- maybe not. While the people on PF seem to line up where I would expect them to, the site lists Obama as being pretty solidly conservative -- more conservative even than me. That doesn't seem right.

 

[micromass]

[shrug] After talking to people on PF for 8 years, it is exactly what I would have expected.

If I read P&WA, then I rarely see statements such as "Obama is not left enough". Considering the position of Obama in the graph (which I also think is inaccurate), I would expect many people to think like that.

 

[russ_watters]

If I read P&WA, then I rarely see statements such as "Obama is not left enough". Considering the position of Obama in the graph (which I also think is inaccurate), I would expect many people to think like that.

I added an edit to my post: I also think it odd that they put Obama so far to the right; even further to the right than me.
[another late edit. Sorry] The placement of Obama so far to the right may be another reflection of the reality of being in power, similar to my earlier statement about authoritarianism. It may just be that by virtue of being the one who gets to make decisions and take the actions, he acts in an authoritarian way and a similar issue may exist on the horizontal scale.

It was the placement of the people on PF that seemed correct to me. Anyway, on the general issue of bias in the poll, the faq discusses it:

1. Some of the questions are slanted

Most of them are slanted! Some right-wingers accuse us of a leftward slant. Some left-wingers accuse us of a rightward slant. But it's important to realize that this isn't a survey, and these aren't questions. They're propositions — an altogether different proposition. To question the logic of individual ones that irritate you is to miss the point. Some propositions are extreme, and some are more moderate. That's how we can show you whether you lean towards extremism or moderation on the Compass.

Regarding the rating of individual politicians:

9. How can you determine where politicians are honestly at without asking them?

How can you tell where they're honestly at by asking them? Especially around election time. We rely on reports, parliamentary voting records, manifestos … and actions that speak much louder than words. It takes us a great deal longer than simply having the politician take the test — but it's also a far more accurate assessment. In our early experience, politicians taking the test often responded in ways that conflicted with their actions but conformed to the prevailing mood of the electorate.

We are occasionally asked about publishing the individual responses of politicians. We frown on this. The propositions are too vague to be considered statements of policy, and the individual responses are not significant in themselves. When summed to give an economic and social score, however, they provide an accurate profile of a mental state.

I would say that the rating of the politicians is probably inherently more error-prone than the rating of people who answer the polls, so I would consider it less reliable.

The faq also discusses gripes on certain questions, such as:

10. Your proposition on globalisation suggests that corporations and humanity can't both benefit.

This might suggest an anti-conservative bias to the questionnaire unless you consider my previous point about the question having to be biased to flesh-out the bias of the people they are questioning. I'm sure there are examples on the liberal side as well.

And on the specific question of abstract art:

11. What have attitudes towards things like abstract art and homosexuality to do with politics?

On the social scale, they're immensely important. Homophobia has been highly politicised by leaders like Robert Mugabe and betrays a tendency to condemn and punish those who disregard conventional values. Hitler's pink triangles reflected similar authoritarian hostility.

Likewise, authoritarian régimes frequently attack highly imaginative and unconventional art, music and literary works as a threat to the rigid cultural conformity they uphold.

 

[rootX]

http://www.politicalcompass.org/facebook/pcgraphpng.php?ec=2.00&soc=-1.28

This is pretty much in line with every one of these I've done since I did my first one in Junior High. I think some of my opinions have moved to the left and some to the right, but they've largely averaged out. And I think I'm pretty good at not letting passion affect the strength of my beliefs.

I was less than one point left of you yet sometimes I find differences between you and me quite striking. I might haven't been very careful or I just had similar answers to you for questions that had high weight.

 

[Jimmy Snyder]

While the people on PF seem to line up where I would expect them to, the site lists Obama as being pretty solidly conservative -- more conservative even than me.

Most likely it was the abstract art question that tripped him up.

 

[russ_watters]

This may also be of help, though I'm not sure I understand it:

21. You've got liberals on the right. Don't you know they're left?
This response is exclusively American. Elsewhere neo-liberalism is understood in standard political science terminology — deriving from mid 19th Century Manchester Liberalism, which campaigned for free trade on behalf of the capitalist classes of manufacturers and industrialists. In other words, laissez-faire or economic libertarianism.

In the United States, "liberals" are understood to believe in leftish economic programmes such as welfare and publicly funded medical care, while also holding liberal social views on matters such as law and order, peace, sexuality, women's rights etc. The two don't necessarily go together.

Our Compass rightly separates them. Otherwise, how would you label someone like the late Senator Daniel Patrick Moynihan who, on the one hand, pleased the left by supporting strong economic safety nets for the underprivileged, but angered social liberals with his support for the Vietnam War, the Cold War and other key conservative causes?

 

[russ_watters]

I was less than one point left of you yet sometimes I find differences between you and me quite striking. I might haven't been very careful or I just had similar answers to you for questions that had high weight.

Some of it may be due to positions on certain issues. My positions are quite diverse, for example falling on opposite sides on abortion and gun control. But I rarely discuss those issues.

Perhaps more to the point, I participate more in discussions where I disagree -- otherwise, there would be nothing to discuss! Needless to say, there are lot of opportunities for me to disagree here!

 

[russ_watters]

I added an edit to my post: I also think it odd that they put Obama so far to the right; even further to the right than me.
[another late edit. Sorry] The placement of Obama so far to the right may be another reflection of the reality of being in power, similar to my earlier statement about authoritarianism. It may just be that by virtue of being the one who gets to make decisions and take the actions, he acts in an authoritarian way and a similar issue may exist on the horizontal scale.

Expansion:
It was much discussed/publicized about Clinton that he governed more from the center than people expected. It is less discussed about Obama, but some similar things appear to be occurring with him. For example:

-Renewing the Patriot Act.
-Not closing the 'Gitmo detention center or softening our treatment of the prisoners wrt the courts.
-Extending the Patriot Act.
-Establishing a CIA base in Libya during the civil war.
-Expanding the drone strikes in Pakistan.
-The Afghanistan Surge.

With the exception of the part about closing 'Gitmo, all of these were somewhat of a surprise to me and probably also to many Obama supporters. I don't think his statements during the campaign 4 years ago would have suggested these things. But I think the realities of being the POTUS may have mandated this, whether it be a matter of dealing with practical reality or just having to negotiate and make deals with conservatives.

 

[micromass]

Here are some examples of questions which I think are phrased in a way to make people vote more left/libertarian. Under another phrasing, most people would be to the right. I have included examples of another phrasing, but I realize that this is not perfect.

I'd always support my country, whether it was right or wrong.
I don't support the troops in Iraq because it was not a justified war

Military action that defies international law is sometimes justified.
We should not intervene in a civil war like Libya or Syria since it is not in correspondance with international law.

It's a sad reflection on our society that something as basic as drinking water is now a bottled, branded consumer product.
Basic commodoties such as bottled water should be nationalized.

Land shouldn't be a commodity to be bought and sold.
Nobody should be able to own land.

It is regrettable that many personal fortunes are made by people who simply manipulate money and contribute nothing to their society.
Most rich people are thiefs and manipulators.

Those with the ability to pay should have the right to higher standards of medical care .
The state should pay for plastic surgery

All authority should be questioned.
We should question the authority of scientists who proclaim that evolution is true.

The prime function of schooling should be to equip the future generation to find jobs.
Government should make science and engineering degrees cheaper for students than arts degrees, since those jobs are more in demand.

There are no savage and civilised peoples; there are only different cultures.
Slavery is ok when it is done in another culture.

It is a waste of time to try to rehabilitate some criminals.
It is possible to rehabilitate Breivik and to allow him to walk free again.

Multinational companies are unethically exploiting the plant genetic resources of developing countries.
I would have less money and a lower standard of living for myself and my children, if it means that companies stop exploiting the developing countries.

 

[russ_watters]

Here are some examples of questions which I think are phrased in a way to make people vote more left/libertarian. Under another phrasing, most people would be to the right. I have included examples of another phrasing, but I realize that this is not perfect.

I'd always support my country, whether it was right or wrong.
I don't support the troops in Iraq because it was not a justified war...

Thanks for the examples, but again, as per the FAQ, I'm pretty sure you're missing the point. It's what I expected:

I agree with you that the statement, as worded, was an extreme conservative position. But it appears that you are assuming the scoring of the question makes "agree" put you on the right half of the scale and "disagree" on the left half. That isn't necessarily how they score it. "Disagree" might be the middle of the road position.

The questions are supposed to be biased. They have to be. The only way to identify an extremist is to ask extremist-biased questions.

 

[Pythagorean]

Military action that defies international law is sometimes justified.
We should not intervene in a civil war like Libya or Syria since it is not in correspondance with international law.

I agreed that it was sometimes justified

It's a sad reflection on our society that something as basic as drinking water is now a bottled, branded consumer product.
Basic commodoties such as bottled water should be nationalized.

I disagreed that this was sad

Land shouldn't be a commodity to be bought and sold.
Nobody should be able to own land.

I disagreed...

It is regrettable that many personal fortunes are made by people who simply manipulate money and contribute nothing to their society.
Most rich people are thiefs and manipulators.

I did agree with this, it wasn't a statement of proportion, so "many people" is choose your own number.

All authority should be questioned.
We should question the authority of scientists who proclaim that evolution is true.

I agreed

The prime function of schooling should be to equip the future generation to find jobs.
Government should make science and engineering degrees cheaper for students than arts degrees, since those jobs are more in demand.

I disagreed, I think the main function of schooling is to educate people about who they are where they come from. Self-understanding, in terms of biology, psychology, and society.

There are no savage and civilised peoples; there are only different cultures.
Slavery is ok when it is done in another culture.

I disagreed, I think there's different qualitied between tribal and metropolitan peoples, but I don't have a value judgment of good/bad.

It is a waste of time to try to rehabilitate some criminals.
It is possible to rehabilitate Breivik and to allow him to walk free again.

I agree, it is a waste of time to rehabilitate some people.

Multinational companies are unethically exploiting the plant genetic resources of developing countries.
I would have less money and a lower standard of living for myself and my children, if it means that companies stop exploiting the developing countries.

I agreed, we have a "screens to nature" program in the botanical sciences that is very careful about promising not to violate this kind of global etiquette precisely because it has happened in the past. I live in a place that still has tribal councils, so the issue is relevant.

Again, this isn't a value judgment though.Anyway.. given my above responses, I felt a lot of the time I leaned state slightly, yet I got libertarian. So I'm not sure exactly how our stereotypes of what the test is testing match the actual test. Maybe it tests deeper, pscyhological responses to stereotypes. I am registered libertarian and I do actually demonstrate problems with authority in my behavior (not intentionally). Idealistically, I respect authority a lot, though.

So I'm not sure if this is coincidence or bad sampling memory or if I'm just really just more libertarian than I think. I always thought of myself as more neutral. I'm glad for police and market regulation, but I still think capitalism is the best structure for prosperity for everyone and I don't think my social life should be dictated by policy.

 

[SixNein]

I think that the fact that most people here score libertarian-left is a clear indication that the poll is biased to that side. I don't believe for a second that almost everybody on PF is libertarian and left.

I think that just means that most here don't like seeing government legislate taste. In that regard, we are all very libertarian. At the same time, they feel that government has a social-economic responsibility. Other members still agree that we shouldn't legislate taste; however, they feel the government should take a more minor role in social-economics (IE: on the right hand side).

I would imagine that the graph would look different if we put this in front of a less educated audience. For example, I'd be shocked if we didn't see plenty of authoritarians in the tea party. They echo other peoples arguments too much not to be authoritarian to some degree or another.

 

[Pythagorean]

Russ has a good point, especially for the US, you should read the FAQ.

authoritarian/libertarian is social scale only. Anyone who commands an active military probably gets a big authoritarian score. US has the biggest military in the world, so all of its leaders have available to them an easy button that makes them instantly an authoritarian. Protect America and TSA, yup. Drone strikes... yup. Cost of being the biggest military power, your have to watch all your citizens a little closer to make sure one of them isn't a terrorist. Obama is only less authoritarian than Romney because his sometimes cautious lean towards civil rights (women's health rights, gay rights, other little populist appeals).

left/right is economic. Obama has done wonderful things for big business sectors. In the US big business and government is entwined with the financial sector at the expense of the individual.

Universal health care with tax penalty and no public option is both authoritarian and right. It forces the individual to pay the government or the market. Romney, on top of a similar health plan, was closing tax loop holes and doubling municipal fees, cutting funding from local municipals. All pretty statist actions, too. And of course, there's no contest for him about his extreme right values.

 

[Dembadon]

... Isn't that the point of the test? ...

After reading the FAQ, I now have a better understanding of why it's written the way it is.

 

[Dembadon]

http://www.politicalcompass.org/facebook/pcgraphpng.php?ec=-0.25&soc=-3.74

 

[Pythagorean]

I got moderately liberal, slightly statist on Ryan's test. But that one let's you think, it's almost as if you're the president making decisions. It's not as much of an emotional test, so if you have an ideology that your behavior doesn't agree with, this test will mostly only measure your ideology.

 

[Dembadon]

Here's my Nolan chart:

 

[SixNein]

Russ has a good point, especially for the US, you should read the FAQ.

authoritarian/libertarian is social scale only. Anyone who commands an active military probably gets a big authoritarian score. US has the biggest military in the world, so all of its leaders have available to them an easy button that makes them instantly an authoritarian. Protect America and TSA, yup. Drone strikes... yup. Cost of being the biggest military power, your have to watch all your citizens a little closer to make sure one of them isn't a terrorist. Obama is only less authoritarian than Romney because his sometimes cautious lean towards civil rights (women's health rights, gay rights, other little populist appeals).

left/right is economic. Obama has done wonderful things for big business sectors. In the US big business and government is entwined with the financial sector at the expense of the individual.

Universal health care with tax penalty and no public option is both authoritarian and right. It forces the individual to pay the government or the market. Romney, on top of a similar health plan, was closing tax loop holes and doubling municipal fees, cutting funding from local municipals. All pretty statist actions, too. And of course, there's no contest for him about his extreme right values.

For people...
Authoritarian is a little more about religiously following authority. For example, gay marriage is wrong because my religious leader says its wrong. We need a big military because my party says so.. etc

Authoritarians generally follow their in-group as opposed to individual criticism of policy.

For Leaders..

Wanting to see only democrats or republicans rule would be an example. I'm sure Obama would love to see super-majorities of democrats in congress.

 

[Ryan_m_b]

We have no way of knowing how it rates any questions. Perhaps you saw a question as being a misrepresentation of a liberal position, but really the point was to test the response of conservatives to the caricature? Or just that conservatives would view the isssue differently, even not being a caricature of their view. Do you have any examples you can remember of such questions?

Caricature is the right word I feel. For example the hitting of children or absolute unquestioning of authority.

 

[Jack21222]

Caricature is the right word I feel. For example the hitting of children or absolute unquestioning of authority.

Maybe in Great Britain, hitting children is cartoonishly evil, but it's extremely common in America.

 

[russ_watters]

Caricature is the right word I feel. For example the hitting of children or absolute unquestioning of authority.

I'm not sure what you mean by the hitting of children thing, but the absolute, unquestioning authority one would be a test to see if the responder was an extreme authoritarian.