Why are tangent vectors like this?

  • Context: Graduate 
  • Thread starter Thread starter jostpuur
  • Start date Start date
  • Tags Tags
    Tangent Vectors
Click For Summary

Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the definition and nature of tangent vectors in smooth manifolds, particularly contrasting intrinsic definitions with extrinsic ones. Participants explore the implications of defining tangent spaces without reference to an ambient Euclidean space and the conceptual challenges that arise from this approach.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Conceptual clarification
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants question why tangent vectors are defined as mappings from C^{\infty}(p) to \mathbb{R} resembling derivations, especially when considering manifolds without an ambient space.
  • Others argue for the advantages of intrinsic definitions in differential geometry, suggesting that the tangent bundle can be understood through derivations without needing an ambient space.
  • A participant raises the point that the tangent space at a point p in a manifold M is spanned by derivations, questioning why it is not simply represented as a vector space \mathbb{R}^n spanned by standard basis vectors.
  • Another participant emphasizes that \mathbb{R}^n is an unrelated structure that does not inherently relate to the manifold, making it unsuitable for defining operations like directional derivatives on scalar functions.
  • One participant explains that in classical extrinsic geometry, tangent spaces can be viewed as spans of partial derivatives of charts from \mathbb{R}^n into the manifold, and that intrinsic definitions arise from the need to define differentiation without prior knowledge of it.
  • Concerns are raised about the ambiguity of which \mathbb{R}^n should be used to define tangent spaces, noting that while there are many isomorphic copies, they are not canonically isomorphic.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the nature of tangent vectors and the appropriateness of intrinsic versus extrinsic definitions. There is no consensus on the best approach or the implications of these definitions.

Contextual Notes

Participants highlight limitations in understanding tangent spaces without an ambient space and the challenges in defining directional derivatives. The discussion also reflects on the dependence of definitions on the context of the manifold.

jostpuur
Messages
2,112
Reaction score
19
Why are the tangent vectors of smooth manifolds defined as mappings C^{\infty}(p)\to\mathbb{R} that have the similar properties as derivations?

If a manifold is defined as a subset of some larger euclidean space, then the tangent spaces are simply affine subspaces of the larger space, but if the manifold is instead defined without the underlying larger euclidean space, then I don't understand what the tangent spaces even should be like.
 
Physics news on Phys.org
There are many practical, philosophical, and conceptual advantages to using intrinsic definitions in differential geometry -- definitions that do not involve an ambient space at all.

If you work through the details, you'll see that the tangent bundle as you know it is isomorphic to the definition via derivations.

(FYI, this definition is not the only way to define the tangent bundle)
 
Last edited:
The tangent space of a point p\in M turns out to be a vector space spanned by the derivations (\partial_i)_p. But why like this? Why isn't it simply a vector space \mathbb{R}^n spanned by the vectors e_i?

If I didn't know better, I would have thought, that when moving from manifolds in ambient spaces to manifolds without ambient spaces, the obvious modification to the tangent spaces would have been to remove the information about the location of the affine subspace, and simply call a vector space \mathbb{R}^n the tangent space.
 
The problem is that Rn is a completely unrelated structure; it doesn't 'know' anything about your manifold. You can't, for example, use this definition to define a "directional derivative" operator on scalar functions.
 
Well, in classical extrinsic geometry, for any chart x from R^n into your manifold M, the tangent manifold can be thought of as the space spanned by partial derivatives of x. If you prefer, you can think of this as the span of derivatives of all maps from R into M. The "intrinsic" definition is just an easy way of defining that when we don't know what differentiation is yet.

Namely, we can note that for any map from R into M we can compose with a map from M into R, and then differentiate that, and so any curve gives rise to a derivation. Clearly in the case that M already has an embedding in R^n this derivation clearly depends only on the derivative of your curve. So it's just a clever way of defining the same thing.

As for defining the tangent space to be R^n, *which* R^n. There are many isomorphic copies, but they are not canonically isomorphic. You'll learn the importance of this very quickly.
 

Similar threads

  • · Replies 21 ·
Replies
21
Views
4K
  • · Replies 13 ·
Replies
13
Views
4K
  • · Replies 9 ·
Replies
9
Views
4K
  • · Replies 73 ·
3
Replies
73
Views
9K
  • · Replies 18 ·
Replies
18
Views
3K
  • · Replies 5 ·
Replies
5
Views
2K
  • · Replies 10 ·
Replies
10
Views
4K
  • · Replies 4 ·
Replies
4
Views
2K
  • · Replies 5 ·
Replies
5
Views
3K
  • · Replies 3 ·
Replies
3
Views
3K