Why aren't Gravitational waves factored in to inflation formulas?

In summary, the conversation discusses the role of gravitational waves in inflationary physics and whether they could potentially contribute to the understanding of dark matter. However, it is stated that gravitational waves are typically ignored in inflation models because they would quickly get smoothed out. The conversation also touches on the concept of a scalar field and the lack of matter during inflation. The expert clarifies that the Higgs field is a type of scalar field and that all mass is created after inflation ends. Overall, the conversation highlights the complexity of inflationary physics and the need for a safe and understanding community when discussing these concepts.
  • #1
Barque
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TL;DR Summary
Layman, asking question which seems intuitive. Gravitational waves ought likely be factored in to inflation mathematics.
It seems to me that gravitational waves are ignored when inflationary physics are described. I'm not very well read, and honestly do not know so much about most of the physics going on with inflation. Still, wave mechanics matter, harmonics matter, and it just seems intuitive to me that in order to get such a whacky inflation rate curve, something isn't being considered. Is it possible that the harmonics associated with huge masses of energy crashing together might help? Would something like this have anything to do with dark matter?

thanks for accommodating a layperson, it's a simple premise really but it seems ignored: gravitational waves as a part of inflation
 
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  • #2
Barque said:
It seems to me that gravitational waves are ignored when inflationary physics are described.
That's because, heuristically, inflation "smooths" any "bumps" in curvature, and that includes gravitational waves. So gravitational waves, if they happened to be present when inflation started, would quickly get smoothed out and would not contribute anything significant to the dynamics.

Barque said:
in order to get such a whacky inflation rate curve
What do you mean by this? Inflation is a simple consequence of a particular kind of scalar field; there's nothing at all "whacky" about it.

Barque said:
Is it possible that the harmonics associated with huge masses of energy crashing together might help?
What "huge masses of energy crashing together" are you talking about? During inflation there is nothing else in the universe.

Barque said:
Would something like this have anything to do with dark matter?
Dark matter is a completely different topic from inflation. Which one do you want to talk about?
 
  • #3
Doesn't this reply connote a certain denial of "clumps" of matter? Certainly, things were not all smoothed out? Something smells bad here, but again - I don't really do this work for a living.
PeterDonis said:
That's because, heuristically, inflation "smooths" any "bumps" in curvature, and that includes gravitational waves. So gravitational waves, if they happened to be present when inflation started, would quickly get smoothed out and would not contribute anything significant to the dynamics.What do you mean by this? Inflation is a simple consequence of a particular kind of scalar field; there's nothing at all "whacky" about it.What "huge masses of energy crashing together" are you talking about? During inflation there is nothing else in the universe.Dark matter is a completely different topic from inflation. Which one do you want to talk about?
Also, the scalar field you speak of seems to be more mathematically derived than observationally confirmed. We make scales, physics might not really be in accordance even when appearing to do so.

huge masses of energy crashing together. if things were all homogenous then there wouldn't be clumps? Again, I'm a primitive here - was simply curious.

If dark matter and inflation are not intertwined then someone is missing the point - all mass was distributed.

My question was about gravitational effects during inflation - beyond constants. It simply seems that masses (clumps) bashing together early makes waves. These waves interact, and if at proper frequencies, they harmonize.

Again, I'm no mathematician, and the poke seemed harsh to me. Then again I can accept stepping into a new public forum and being forced to face my own ignorance. Lol... can you bother to accommodate a layperson?
 
  • #4
meh, was question. there are 8 billion people here and some think they are smart. Even if you are average there are 4 billion people smarter than you. without a safe community, however, nobody goes anywhere.
 
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  • #5
Barque said:
Doesn't this reply connote a certain denial of "clumps" of matter? Certainly, things were not all smoothed out?
Evidently you didn't grasp what "during inflation there is nothing else in the universe" means. Inflation happens before there is any matter. What you call "matter" gets created when inflation ends, and all the energy that was stored in the scalar field gets transferred to the usual Standard Model fields we know--quarks, leptons, etc. During inflation the scalar field is the only thing there is, and it doesn't clump.

Barque said:
the scalar field you speak of seems to be more mathematically derived than observationally confirmed.
The Higgs field is a scalar field. Not the same one as the one that appears in inflation models, but the fact remains that we do have observational evidence that scalar fields in general can exist.

Barque said:
We make scales
"Scales" has nothing to do with a scalar field. "Scalar" means "zero spin".

Barque said:
huge masses of energy crashing together. if things were all homogenous then there wouldn't be clumps?
See my response to the first quote above.

Barque said:
all mass was distributed.
There is no "mass" in the sense you mean the term during inflation; there is no matter in the universe. See my response to the first quote above.

Barque said:
My question was about gravitational effects during inflation
No, your question was about gravitational waves during inflation.

If you want to talk about gravitational "effects" more generally, inflation is a gravitational effect--it's the gravitational effect of a scalar field when it's the only field in the universe that contains any energy.

Barque said:
I'm a primitive here
Barque said:
I'm no mathematician
Given these admissions of yours, you should have a very low level of confidence in your ability to come up with correct intuitive answers about how inflation works.

Barque said:
and the poke seemed harsh to me
What poke?

Barque said:
can you bother to accommodate a layperson?
I am accommodating you: I'm explaining why your intuition about inflation is wrong. What else would you expect?
 
  • #6
Barque said:
meh, was question. there are 8 billion people here and some think they are smart. Even if you are average there are 4 billion people smarter than you. without a safe community, however, nobody goes anywhere.
What is your point here?
 
  • #7
You win the thread dude, have fun!
 
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  • #8
Barque said:
You win the thread dude, have fun!
It's not a matter of winning or losing. Is your question answered or not? If it is, good. If it isn't, responding with snark accomplishes nothing.
 
  • #9
@Barque - are you confusing inflation, a theory about the early universe, with the expansion we see today? They're related phenomena (kind of) but they aren't the same thing.
 
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  • #10
I ask because you mention dark matter, which has nothing to do with inflation (as Peter says, it forms as part of the process when inflation ends) but does affect the dynamics of expansion and the "clumping" of galaxy formation.
 
Last edited:

1. Why do we need to factor in gravitational waves when calculating inflation?

Gravitational waves are ripples in the fabric of space-time that are produced by massive objects moving through space. Inflation, on the other hand, is the rapid expansion of the universe in the first fraction of a second after the Big Bang. These two phenomena are connected because inflation is thought to have been triggered by the release of gravitational waves from the early universe. Therefore, in order to accurately model and understand the process of inflation, we need to take into account the effects of gravitational waves.

2. How do gravitational waves affect the process of inflation?

Gravitational waves can affect the process of inflation in several ways. First, they can amplify quantum fluctuations in the early universe, leading to the formation of large-scale structures like galaxies and galaxy clusters. Second, they can also produce a distinct pattern in the cosmic microwave background radiation, which is the leftover radiation from the Big Bang. By studying this pattern, we can gain valuable insights into the conditions of the universe during inflation.

3. Can we detect gravitational waves from the early universe?

Yes, we can indirectly detect gravitational waves from the early universe through their effects on the cosmic microwave background radiation. The cosmic microwave background is the oldest light in the universe and carries valuable information about the early universe. By studying the patterns in this radiation, scientists can infer the presence of gravitational waves and their effects on the process of inflation.

4. How do scientists incorporate gravitational waves into inflation formulas?

Scientists incorporate gravitational waves into inflation formulas by including them as a source term in the equations that describe the evolution of the universe during inflation. This allows them to model the effects of gravitational waves on the expansion of the universe and make predictions about observable phenomena, such as the cosmic microwave background radiation.

5. Are there any current experiments or observations that support the inclusion of gravitational waves in inflation formulas?

Yes, there are several experiments and observations that support the inclusion of gravitational waves in inflation formulas. One of the most significant pieces of evidence is the detection of a distinct pattern in the cosmic microwave background radiation, known as B-mode polarization. This pattern is consistent with the predictions of inflation models that include the effects of gravitational waves. Additionally, experiments like the Laser Interferometer Gravitational-Wave Observatory (LIGO) have directly detected gravitational waves from other sources, providing further evidence for their existence and importance in understanding the early universe.

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